[amnesiajune]

I'd love to see where they'll get 60 streetcars custom-designed for Toronto's specs for $6 million each, or anything remotely competitive with that. There's a reason why the TTC staff have been recommending sticking with Bombardier despite the delays.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Bombardier should throw those extra 60 streetcars complimentary for free after their delays.

 

[dowlingm]

Bombardier should throw those extra 60 streetcars complimentary for free after their delays.

30pc extra free when BBD is probably losing money on every car they are making at this point, given what they have had to pump into rectifying their supply chain? The contract max is 5pc (10 cars) but after accounting for change orders and other shenanigans I expect maybe six.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

30pc extra free when BBD is probably losing money on every car they are making at this point, given what they have had to pump into rectifying their supply chain? The contract max is 5pc (10 cars) but after accounting for change orders and other shenanigans I expect maybe six.

10 cars seems to be quite reasonable and as of right now the TTC seems to want to work with Bombardier to get though this order, It's just that some city councilors that think they know everything because they are a counselor believe that it's a good idea to abandon things that aren't going the way they think they should. Maybe they should leave city council and get a job at metrolinx instead where those type of ideas seem to be good ones.

 

[smallspy]

what drum left out was that the motion is in the name of Denzil Minnan Wong, which makes it more of a bowel movement than a motion.

Hopefully staff remind Council that the Alstom Metrolinx buy was at a significant premium over the Transit City pricing (even factoring for the additional capacity), and so would the new order. If the options are voided and Bombardier simply requotes at list price, is Minnan Wong going to take responsibility for finding the extra $? Like hell he will.

Also keep in mind the extra engineering and lead time that would be necessary for any other company to come in and offer those 60 cars. They won't be doing all that work for free....

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Adjei]

10 cars seems to be quite reasonable and as of right now the TTC seems to want to work with Bombardier to get though this order, It's just that some city councilors that think they know everything because they are a counselor believe that it's a good idea to abandon things that aren't going the way they think they should. Maybe they should leave city council and get a job at metrolinx instead where those type of ideas seem to be good ones.

How much are you getting to shill for Bombardier?

 

[UD2]

How much are you getting to shill for Bombardier?

This is an odd reply to a perfectly reasonable post. Which makes me wonder how much you're getting paid by Alstom.

 

[coopEng]

This is an odd reply to a perfectly reasonable post. Which makes me wonder how much you're getting paid by Alstom.

At some point the TTC will have to accept the low bidder just simply couldn't perform at the pricing they received. Everyone else should also accept that even if BBD is responsible for this mess (which can be debated) that if we went with someone else we would have paid more and there would be no guarantee that we would have more streetcars than BBD has delivered or if they would be performing better or worse.

Its easy to say they better make us right and give us free vehicles or credits to the contract or let's sue them - but it might be easier to simply accept they couldnt get the job done at the price they offered. Doesn't mean the TTC is getting screwed because we have no idea how the other bidder would have performed. In situations like this (where there isnt such a public battle of words) you can see additional money being spent to help BBD out to get things moving (not that money may be the answer).

I am not defending BBD, just noting that they along with the TTC are in a difficult position which happens a lot with low bidders - hitting the reset and trying to source additional cars isnt worth the risk.

 

[crs1026]

Given that the situation with Bombardier has stabilised, and cars are now rolling off the production line at a rate that meets the latest restatement of the schedule, this taxpayer would prefer to see his hard-earned money spent on the cheaper, and now predictable Flexities, rather than to prolong the debate and drive costs up by looking for a second supplier who will undoubtedly be a higher-cost bidder than exercising the Bombardier option..

There's no doubt that Bombardier screwed TTC around for the first three years of the contract. I don't know what the right remedy for that is, and perhaps a 'just' consequence isn't likely to happen given that litigation is difficult and costly. Certainly Bombardier's deficiencies have gained public spotlight and I don't know many people (including observers from other transport properties) who believe much of Bombardier's PR about how it was totally explainable and not Bombardier's doing. Those reputational issues will linger, and even if customers continue to place orders they will be that much more wary and watchful. So Bombardier will face consequences.

But at the end of the day, I would rather be pragmatic at this point than try to get the final word in on the whole thing. Provided, of course, that the TTC gets the best possible deal from Bombardier. They do have plenty to atone for and some extra free/underpriced product is a good way to do so.

- Paul

 

[Adjei]

This is an odd reply to a perfectly reasonable post. Which makes me wonder how much you're getting paid by Alstom.

This guy has been here blindly supporting Bombardier and attacking Metrolinx for months. Show me where I have shown any support for Alstom?

 

[nfitz]

How much are you getting to shill for Bombardier?

I'm not sure why anyone stating the obvious would be called a shill.

Looking at the price of the next bidder in 2010 (or whenever), and the much higher cost that Metrolinx is paying for the Citadis (or whoever) vehicles, and looking at how the TTC streetcars are unlike any others in the world, especially in terms of turn radius, voltage, and gradient requirements, then it's pretty clear that if they go elsewhere for those 60 vehicles, it's going to both cost more, and take longer than simply adding 60 more vehicles to the current assembly lines.

 

[Steve X]

Even if BBD was only able to maintain the current rate of delivery, it would mean a year and a half for 60 cars. Going to another supplier and restart the another route of bidding, prototyping, testing and training is going to take over much longer than 1.5 years. The only reasons why TTC would consider a new suplier is if BBD completely stops production for whatever reason or the MDBF doesn't go up. The low MDBF is only temporary as TTC/BBD haven't solved the teething issues.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

How much are you getting to shill for Bombardier?

probably about the same as everyone that is shilling for Bombardier to fail and some other company will come in as a saviour. Which has bout as much chance ato the TTC ever agreeing to eliminate Bombardier from future orders, city council has no idea what goes into procuring transit vehicles and should keep their opinions out of it until they asked to put up the money for it.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

This guy has been here blindly supporting Bombardier and attacking Metrolinx for months. Show me where I have shown any support for Alstom?

I'm sorry I don't support your opinion, I go by what I her Andy Byford report to the TTC board every month about what is going on with the new streetcars. I relly don't care what the media want to report or the general public. I believe heim because he is constant contact with the Ceo of Bombardier to make sure that they are meeting their scheduled delivery, if he reports that they aren't happy that's when they should call for another company.

 

[dowlingm]

If accusing other members (without evidence) of being paid to advocate for commercial entities isn't against board rules, shouldn't it be?

The crisis for Bombardier is approaching - they have hit their marks in the last few months but if they can actually deliver the promised production rate with the second line *and* the doors issue can be figured out (latest CEO report) I would take my chances with them. At this stage BBD have not earned the trust that they can do either.