[RedRocket191]

The "rules" have always seemed to be a moving bar to me. It's kinda like the Phoenix Coyotes saga:

$200 million to buy the team
$100 million re-location fee
$300 million competition compensation to the Leafs?
$50 million cut-of-your-jib fee?
$10 million look-on-your-face fine? (yes, that is different than the cut-of-your-jib fee)

$1000 leaving town tax?...

It's like a kid in the playground shouting "new rule!" whenever he might lose at his own game...

Or maybe I'm just cynical...

 

[UD2]

The "rules" have always seemed to be a moving bar to me. It's kinda like the Phoenix Coyotes saga:

$200 million to buy the team
$100 million re-location fee
$300 million competition compensation to the Leafs?
$50 million cut-of-your-jib fee?
$10 million look-on-your-face fine? (yes, that is different than the cut-of-your-jib fee)

$1000 leaving town tax?...

It's like a kid in the playground shouting "new rule!" whenever he might lose at his own game...

Or maybe I'm just cynical...

That deal was never meant to go through.

 

[RedRocket191]

That deal was never meant to go through.

And that, my friend, is what I believe is happening here.

 

[nfitz]

You guys need to understand the rules of asking for money.

You always buy the vehicles first and then force out the money for the garage. ...

I don't disagree. Miller has been nothing short of brilliant on the politicking on this one. Getting $billions of funding for 3 new LRT routes, and having all the new vehicles contingent on this replacement vehicle contract (because it's an add-on in the tender) was an example of this.

Really, the whole thing was won once, the Sheppard East LRT was announced; everyone knows the existing vehicles need replacing ... and it would only get more expensive after this. He's got them by the balls!

 

[Hipster Duck]

Or maybe I'm just cynical...

Living in this city and making sense of its transit "planning" will do that to you!

 

[nfitz]

Looks like no federal money for streetcars - http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...06/18/no-federal-cash-for-streetcars-pmo.aspx

Which makes you wonder what Toronto's share of the stimulus funding will be used on. Perhaps the Feds will build a bridge to the Island airport instead

Bonus, we get the streetcars ... and another $900-million more in announcements to come! It will be interesting to see if the Province is going to pick up the federal portion of the tab or not.

 

[TOareaFan]

Looks like no federal money for streetcars - http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...06/18/no-federal-cash-for-streetcars-pmo.aspx

Which makes you wonder what Toronto's share of the stimulus funding will be used on. Perhaps the Feds will build a bridge to the Island airport instead

Bonus, we get the streetcars ... and another $900-million more in announcements to come! It will be interesting to see if the Province is going to pick up the federal portion of the tab or not.

Maybe Toronto does not get a "share" of the stimulus funding. I think the issue is that municipalities had to apply for funding for qualified projects....Toronto made one application (the streetcars)....likely knowing that they did not qualify under the letter of the program but hoping the feds would say "but, wow, it is Toronto's only project. if we don't fund it the biggest city in the land won't get any dough from the program".....now it looks like the feds won't blink but that Toronto will still get their street cars and it is the province that blinked....likely more out of concern for Thunder Bay than Toronto.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I’m guessing that Miller will be avoiding flying from the Toronto City Centre Airport to Thunder Bay (using Bombardier aircraft) for the formal announcement. But, will McGuinty?

 

[TOareaFan]

Different question.....

.....sorry if this has already been answered but I am way too lazy to look back over the pages of this thread.

I was walking along today and a friend asked me about the new streetcars.....I didn't have the answer to this question that went sorta like this:

"The stock picture of the new euro-style streetcars that always appears in the paper is more of a train car pulling 4 other cars...so 5 cars in length total. That streetcar (pointing at the King car crawling by) is one car in length and sometimes there are two-long cars. When the paper says we are buying 204 new euro-style cars from Bombardier, are we really buying 1,020 or is each car in that stock picture considered 1?"

I was very embarressed that I did not know the answer.

 

[nfitz]

Maybe Toronto does not get a "share" of the stimulus funding.

The quote this afternoon from John Baird in the article I referenced above doesn't suggest that at all. It says "We do not want to create jobs on another continent, we want to create jobs right in the city of Toronto ... We are committed to working constructively with (the Finance Minister) and with the mayor to make things happen for the people of Toronto."

Presumably the Feds will simply invite Toronto to make a third round of submissions. Though finding the matching $600-million will be fun.

 

[Automation Gallery]

I was walking along today and a friend asked me about the new streetcars.....I didn't have the answer to this question that went sorta like this:

"The stock picture of the new euro-style streetcars that always appears in the paper is more of a train car pulling 4 other cars...so 5 cars in length total. That streetcar (pointing at the King car crawling by) is one car in length and sometimes there are two-long cars. When the paper says we are buying 204 new euro-style cars from Bombardier, are we really buying 1,020 or is each car in that stock picture considered 1?"

I think the ones we are ordering for the existing routes downtown are the shorter version. 1-2 cars?

 

[nfitz]

The stock picture of the new euro-style streetcars that always appears in the paper is more of a train car pulling 4 other cars...so 5 cars in length total. That streetcar (pointing at the King car crawling by) is one car in length and sometimes there are two-long cars. When the paper says we are buying 204 new euro-style cars from Bombardier, are we really buying 1,020 or is each car in that stock picture considered 1?"

The purchase if for 204 5-car untis. However the current 1-car units are about 15-metres long, and the 2-car (ALRV) units are 23-metres long. The new 5-car units are only 30-metres long. About the same as two of the current 1-car units.

I think the ones we are ordering for the existing routes downtown are the shorter version. 1-2 cars?

No, it's the 5-car units for downtown. They haven't got a final design yet for the new routes ... but perhaps simply double-ended 5-car units.

 

[TOareaFan]

The purchase if for 204 5-car untis. However the current 1-car units are about 15-metres long, and the 2-car (ALRV) units are 23-metres long. The new 5-car units are only 30-metres long. About the same as two of the current 1-car units.

Thanks....so each of those 204 cars is like 2 cars currently....so it is the equivalent (from a capacity point of view) of 408 current cars?

How many are we replacing? This is net gain, isn't it?

 

[nfitz]

Thanks....so each of those 204 cars is like 2 cars currently....so it is the equivalent (from a capacity point of view) of 408 current cars?

Sort of.

How many are we replacing? This is net gain, isn't it?

They are replacing 247 cars - 195 one-car units, and 52 two-car units. If you assume the two-car units are 1.5 of the one-car units, then that would be replacing the equivalent of 273 current 1-car vehicles. So there's a gain in capacity. But a potential loss in frequency. I'm concerned that the frequency will reduce - even off-peak.

 

[TOareaFan]

Sort of.

They are replacing 247 cars - 195 one-car units, and 52 two-car units. If you assume the two-car units are 1.5 of the one-car units, then that would be replacing the equivalent of 273 current 1-car vehicles. So there's a gain in capacity. But a potential loss in frequency. I'm concerned that the frequency will reduce - even off-peak.

I hear ya on the frequency but the routes these are on are, mostly, mixed traffic routes, correct?

What I observe (no science, just a guy who walks around downtown with his eyes open) is that there tends to be a lot of bunching anyway (ie. no car for a while then 3 or 4 right in a row)....two streetcars arriving within 15 seconds of each other does not add much value!.......so the scheduled frequnecy may drop but the actual frequncy might be very similar!!!!