W. K. Lis
Superstar
Would the new maintenance facility and storage yard costs be eligible because it is more local? Or because the rails might be made in Hamilton, they would not be?
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Whoaccio
Senior Member
I am sort of upset with both parties, though I suspect that has more to do with an underlying belief that the 'stimulus' was just a dumb excuse for politiking in the first place. On the one hand, no reasonable definition of short term stimulus would include this project. It isn't local, it is to long of a time frame and it is to megaproject-ish in scale. Its pretty evident that City Hall just tried to squeak this under a stimulus package to try and make their lives easier and avoid having to convince the Feds that this project is worth x dollars versus the thousands of other interest groups that ask the feds for cash every budget season.
On the other though, making 'spending money quickly' a qualification for getting money just seems absurd. If the entire stimulus package just gets blown on short term, low planning and low benefit handouts and fails to increase productivity, all it will end up doing is ruining our future economic prospects for short term expediency. It is really unbelievably stupid for any number of reasons.
The best solution, IMO, would be to scrap this entire idea of 'stimulus.' Very little that is worth doing is really feasible to carry out in such a short time span. Its also unreasonable expect that money stay 'local.' Obviously within Canada, it makes zero sense to build trains in y if they can be built cheaper in x. Internationally to, part of future federal infrastructure funding should require Provinces & Municipalities to adhere to WTO & NAFTA regulations on government procurement. Anyways, any kind of revised federal infrastructure program should be focused around long term gains to Canadian productivity. If Toronto wants new streetcars, it should have to make the case that they are among the best value ways to increase the economic health of the City.
On the other though, making 'spending money quickly' a qualification for getting money just seems absurd. If the entire stimulus package just gets blown on short term, low planning and low benefit handouts and fails to increase productivity, all it will end up doing is ruining our future economic prospects for short term expediency. It is really unbelievably stupid for any number of reasons.
The best solution, IMO, would be to scrap this entire idea of 'stimulus.' Very little that is worth doing is really feasible to carry out in such a short time span. Its also unreasonable expect that money stay 'local.' Obviously within Canada, it makes zero sense to build trains in y if they can be built cheaper in x. Internationally to, part of future federal infrastructure funding should require Provinces & Municipalities to adhere to WTO & NAFTA regulations on government procurement. Anyways, any kind of revised federal infrastructure program should be focused around long term gains to Canadian productivity. If Toronto wants new streetcars, it should have to make the case that they are among the best value ways to increase the economic health of the City.
isittimetomoveyet
Active Member
Sheppard East starts this year, take the $400M from that pool for the street cars, and then use the $400M stimulus on the Sheppard East line that starts construction in six months. Just shovel the money around, its all the same... the fact that there isnt complete funding is nonsense.
kEiThZ
Superstar
^ That's probably what'll end up happening. I always thought that stimulus for Toronto would go towards Transit City.
Dan416
Senior Member
I have a better idea. Let's just cancel the Sheppard East LRT until the TTC is willing to finish the Sheppard Subway.
isittimetomoveyet
Active Member
I think it needs to be extended west to Downsview for sure... but I think the rest is just wishful thinking.
allabootmatt
Senior Member
Steve Munro had an interesting interview on Metro Morning yesterday. His take--which was fairly persuasive--is that it would be nice to get federal stimulus money, but the whole notion of a tripartite split for transit projects is a recent invention, and Ottawa's not 'on the hook' for anything. Traditionally the province covered the vast majority of transit capital costs. We still haven't returned to pre-Harris levels of provincial support.
His other point--and on this he's absolutely right--is that there's a lot of huffing and puffing going on about the 27th June expiration. The City and Queen's Park clearly have an interest in claiming that a crisis is imminent without federal money, but in the end they will find a way.
As for me, I don't care what accounting tricks we need to set up--let's just get that !$*$**£€&*% contract moving!
His other point--and on this he's absolutely right--is that there's a lot of huffing and puffing going on about the 27th June expiration. The City and Queen's Park clearly have an interest in claiming that a crisis is imminent without federal money, but in the end they will find a way.
As for me, I don't care what accounting tricks we need to set up--let's just get that !$*$**£€&*% contract moving!
nfitz
Superstar
Given we've had $9-billion (or is it $10-billion now) from the province in the last few months with the Finch, Eglinton, Sheppard, SRT, and Highway 7 announcements, and $300-million or so from the Fed with their Sheppard announcement, I'd say that even were the feds to cough up the requested amount, that this hasn't changed.
I was working on a tender the other day, and noticed that we were agreeing to hold the prices for 90 days; and I thought, as if they'd come back in 120 days and offer it to us, and we'd say no!
Enough money has been committed, that at worst they can scale back the order so it doesn't replace the ALRVs, add the option for the Sheppard East, and Finch vehicles in to give a order size to achieve the same economy of scale, and sign it.
Presumably if the feds refuse to go along with this, sometime in early July, after a couple of weeks of beating them to death in the media, there will be a list of other projects that will be agreed to ... which I can bet will include the new carhouse in the Portlands.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
This idea strangely holds some merit to me.
Though, I say if Sheppard deserves a subway then Eglinton does as well.
Dan416
Senior Member
I agree with you to an extent. I'd prefer subway on Eglinton than on Sheppard. One small problem: Sheppard is the one that got built, even in its truncated form. So the logical thing to do is FINISH what was started.
The federal government has committed money to Sheppard East LRT, for god knows what reason. Take that money and do something useful with it, not ruining a corridor.
ellett44
New Member
Not sure if already posted, but from TheStar:
Tories on streetcar cash: Absolutely not
OTTAWA – Transportation Minister John Baird has urged Toronto to come up with a list of other infrastructure projects in a letter where he drives a final stake into the heart of the city's plans for federal funding for new streetcars.
Baird, in a polite but blunt letter to Toronto Mayor David Miller, makes it clear that the city's wish list for federal cash for new streetcars and a replacement carhouse don't qualify under Ottawa's Infrastructure Fund.
The correspondence shatters Miller's hopes that Ottawa would come up with the money before the streetcar agreement between Bombardier and the TTC expires June 27.
"Unfortunately, these projects are not eligible under this fund. I hope that, after reading this letter, you will understand why that is the case and will be ready to work with me to find other projects to work together on to build infrastructure in the City of Toronto," Baird states in the letter sent today.
Miller told the Star today he saw the letter as an "olive branch" from Baird because it requests the city to come up with a suitable list of projects, which could well give Toronto funding room for the streetcars.
"I take that request as an olive branch ... and provided that we can work in partnership to ensure that leaves $300 million of room for the City of Toronto then that would mean we would be able to find a way to work towards the streetcar project ... which is too important to the city to let fail," the mayor said.
Toronto's streetcars carry some 250,000 passengers daily "so we have to find a way to get this order done." Miller said.
The province and the city had pinned their hopes on Ottawa kicking in more than $300 million as its portion of the $1.2 billion cost for buying 204 new streetcars. The carhouse was over and above that.
Baird insisted that while Ontario municipalities successfully submitted 2,700 project applications using the federal government's simplified online application, Toronto failed to do so.
"Unfortunately, Toronto was not among them. The project that your officials tried to submit clearly did not meet the criteria and so could not be submitted," he stated in the letter obtained by the Toronto Star.
Baird was more explicit about his frustration with Toronto's application during a meeting in British Columbia when he was overhead using profanity.
First and foremost, said Baird, all projects funded from the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund must be completed by March 31, 2011.
"This is clearly not the case with the Light Rail Vehicles and the carhouse. The first of the Light Rail Vehicles will not even be delivered until late 2012 at the earliest, and the project will not be complete until 2018, a full seven years past the deadline. Similarly, the carhouse will not even start, let alone finish construction until after March 31, 2011," he stated.
Baird said the majority of the costs involved in this project over the next two years are not in Toronto and are not for the construction of public infrastructure.
"The streetcars are only guaranteed to contain 25 percent Canadian content, and large portion of the requested funding would go to re-tooling a Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay. This fund was created to build public infrastructure, not modernize factories," the minister stated.
Baird said despite all that he asked federal officials to carefully study the city's request and work with Toronto officials to see if it could be made to qualify, adding that it could not be done.
He said the proposed project may well be an "excellent project of great benefit to the people of Toronto, however ... it simply does not fit within the criteria of the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund."
Baird said he was certain Toronto has many worthwhile projects that would be eligible for the stimulus funding and urged the city to get on with making application for federal cash."I have heard that there are many worthwhile projects ready to go today to improve and renew Toronto's infrastructure. These projects would benefit the people of Toronto by improving roads, water and sewer systems, parks and recreational facilities," he stated."It would be a tragedy if the federal government spent $4 billion on infrastructure stimulus across the country but was unable to spend any of this on projects in Toronto. I will not let this happen. I hope that the federal government will have a cooperative partner in the City of Toronto."
Spending for the streetcar contract was approved by City Council as an equal three-way split and now that Ottawa has pulled out council would have to authorize any new spending.
This could be complicated by the fact that city workers are in a legal strike position after midnight tomorrow (Sunday), which means in the event of a walkout all city meetings would be cancelled in the event of a walk, including city council.
Miller said he was not concerned since the city has an established five-year capital projects list that senior city staff could draw on.
Tories on streetcar cash: Absolutely not
OTTAWA – Transportation Minister John Baird has urged Toronto to come up with a list of other infrastructure projects in a letter where he drives a final stake into the heart of the city's plans for federal funding for new streetcars.
Baird, in a polite but blunt letter to Toronto Mayor David Miller, makes it clear that the city's wish list for federal cash for new streetcars and a replacement carhouse don't qualify under Ottawa's Infrastructure Fund.
The correspondence shatters Miller's hopes that Ottawa would come up with the money before the streetcar agreement between Bombardier and the TTC expires June 27.
"Unfortunately, these projects are not eligible under this fund. I hope that, after reading this letter, you will understand why that is the case and will be ready to work with me to find other projects to work together on to build infrastructure in the City of Toronto," Baird states in the letter sent today.
Miller told the Star today he saw the letter as an "olive branch" from Baird because it requests the city to come up with a suitable list of projects, which could well give Toronto funding room for the streetcars.
"I take that request as an olive branch ... and provided that we can work in partnership to ensure that leaves $300 million of room for the City of Toronto then that would mean we would be able to find a way to work towards the streetcar project ... which is too important to the city to let fail," the mayor said.
Toronto's streetcars carry some 250,000 passengers daily "so we have to find a way to get this order done." Miller said.
The province and the city had pinned their hopes on Ottawa kicking in more than $300 million as its portion of the $1.2 billion cost for buying 204 new streetcars. The carhouse was over and above that.
Baird insisted that while Ontario municipalities successfully submitted 2,700 project applications using the federal government's simplified online application, Toronto failed to do so.
"Unfortunately, Toronto was not among them. The project that your officials tried to submit clearly did not meet the criteria and so could not be submitted," he stated in the letter obtained by the Toronto Star.
Baird was more explicit about his frustration with Toronto's application during a meeting in British Columbia when he was overhead using profanity.
First and foremost, said Baird, all projects funded from the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund must be completed by March 31, 2011.
"This is clearly not the case with the Light Rail Vehicles and the carhouse. The first of the Light Rail Vehicles will not even be delivered until late 2012 at the earliest, and the project will not be complete until 2018, a full seven years past the deadline. Similarly, the carhouse will not even start, let alone finish construction until after March 31, 2011," he stated.
Baird said the majority of the costs involved in this project over the next two years are not in Toronto and are not for the construction of public infrastructure.
"The streetcars are only guaranteed to contain 25 percent Canadian content, and large portion of the requested funding would go to re-tooling a Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay. This fund was created to build public infrastructure, not modernize factories," the minister stated.
Baird said despite all that he asked federal officials to carefully study the city's request and work with Toronto officials to see if it could be made to qualify, adding that it could not be done.
He said the proposed project may well be an "excellent project of great benefit to the people of Toronto, however ... it simply does not fit within the criteria of the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund."
Baird said he was certain Toronto has many worthwhile projects that would be eligible for the stimulus funding and urged the city to get on with making application for federal cash."I have heard that there are many worthwhile projects ready to go today to improve and renew Toronto's infrastructure. These projects would benefit the people of Toronto by improving roads, water and sewer systems, parks and recreational facilities," he stated."It would be a tragedy if the federal government spent $4 billion on infrastructure stimulus across the country but was unable to spend any of this on projects in Toronto. I will not let this happen. I hope that the federal government will have a cooperative partner in the City of Toronto."
Spending for the streetcar contract was approved by City Council as an equal three-way split and now that Ottawa has pulled out council would have to authorize any new spending.
This could be complicated by the fact that city workers are in a legal strike position after midnight tomorrow (Sunday), which means in the event of a walkout all city meetings would be cancelled in the event of a walk, including city council.
Miller said he was not concerned since the city has an established five-year capital projects list that senior city staff could draw on.
CodeMonkey
Active Member
If the deal fall threw. The Tories will sure lose votes in Northern Ontario over this.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
I would like to know whether or not the Liberals, New Democrats, (Green Party,) and Bloc Québécois would support federal funding of streetcars (whether it be for Toronto or Montréal). Maybe if all three (or four) support the funding, there will be more pressure on the Conservatives to do so as well.
CodeMonkey
Active Member
allabootmatt
Senior Member
I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that the first thing Baird mentioned as a replacement was 'roads.'