junior43
Active Member
Is anyone actually surprised by this? Thank god I don't use streetcars.........
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Napoleon
Active Member
It's probably the only way to fully enforce the contract provisions for damages. It probably also lights an even bigger fire under Bombardier. There will be real costs to this delay, especially in winter maintenance of streetcars they did not expect to do this winter.
I'm just shocked that after such a public drubbing during the summer that they haven't thrown every available resource at the project. My guess is the city is reacting to the change in trend of delivery dates.
nfitz
Superstar
Probably not.
Might even slow it down. I've kept saying that this bid was very low compared to the next bid. If Bombardier can't get the build time to what they promised, then they are spending a lot more on labour for each car than they predicted.
If they are losing money on each car, they might well be thinking it's better to just pay the $50 million penalty, and walk away. Then with the subway car production ending in a few months, they can shut both those assembly lines down. Move the GO cab car production to La Pocatière, and finally close Thunder Bay.
That they haven't may indicate that they want out.
Either that or some gross incompetence at the managerial level. Though I thought they'd already fired everyone once.
salsa
Senior Member
There is no way anyone at city hall will be in the mood for ordering another 60 streetcars from Bombardier, and yet we badly need them to keep pace with future ridership growth. Toronto has been screwed big time.
Jonny5
Senior Member
This is not a unique circumstance. From what I have read everyone from Washington DC to Cleveland to Kansas are having major equipment delays. Are they all using the same subcontractors?
AlbertHWagstaff
Senior Member
Just give us the 60 cars free for this fiasco and we'll call it even.
drum118
Superstar
I told you so.
We got screw day one when we went to the tender stage with the knowledge that these cars were to be built in Thunder Bay.
We are paying more per car than others are around the world based on a large order vs small orders.
Time to put the extra 60 cars out for world wide bid with no restriction as to where they are to be built based on current trade agreements. If we can get some built or assembly here, its gravy.
As some have said, this order should have been split.
Since we are near the average shipping date, will 4412 be ship this weekend?
Since the order was based on Canadian Dollar, Bombardier is taking a 25% discount on today dollar and that not small change.
Time TTC and the city rethink how they tender large orders and protect the taxpayers as well the users.
We got screw day one when we went to the tender stage with the knowledge that these cars were to be built in Thunder Bay.
We are paying more per car than others are around the world based on a large order vs small orders.
Time to put the extra 60 cars out for world wide bid with no restriction as to where they are to be built based on current trade agreements. If we can get some built or assembly here, its gravy.
As some have said, this order should have been split.
Since we are near the average shipping date, will 4412 be ship this weekend?
Since the order was based on Canadian Dollar, Bombardier is taking a 25% discount on today dollar and that not small change.
Time TTC and the city rethink how they tender large orders and protect the taxpayers as well the users.
drum118
Superstar
No. Various reason for each manufacture.
smably
Senior Member
So the question becomes: can we keep enough ALRVs and CLRVs limping along for the 8 to 10 years required to tender and receive shipment of 60 new cars from another manufacturer? Because honestly, that seems like the only option at this point.
georgevicbell
Active Member
Putting all your eggs in one basket doesn't make sense...even less so when the basket is falling apart...TTC commissioners (both past and present) are to blame for getting and keeping us in this situation...by suing, or even threatening to sue we will likely see Bombardier re-examine what the end-game will be for this contract...they need to get moving on tendering the other 60, with an option for the full contract if Bombardier fails to deliver...
crs1026
Superstar
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/eventList.html
Within the next month, Bombardier Transportation will attend a number of major trade shows around the Globe.
I wonder what impact a whole bunch of picketers would have at these events. Or the Mayor of Toronto or the CEO of the TTC.
Personally, I don't have enough Airmiles to try to attend, I'm just sayin'.
- Paul
Within the next month, Bombardier Transportation will attend a number of major trade shows around the Globe.
I wonder what impact a whole bunch of picketers would have at these events. Or the Mayor of Toronto or the CEO of the TTC.
Personally, I don't have enough Airmiles to try to attend, I'm just sayin'.
- Paul
AlbertHWagstaff
Senior Member
I'm going to guess that they'll add the 10 cars to the ALRV rebuild. They should be good for at least another 10 years if the electronics don't quit.
robmausser
Senior Member
This is all well and good but Bombardier should be responsible for the cost of this.
Its already costing us $76 million for the first 30 car rebuild, not to mention that we have to blacksmith and create all the replacement parts for these vehicles custom in-house. The TTC employs a bunch of full time blacksmiths just for this job.
The cost of rebuilding and then keeping these vehicles in service longer will be quite expensive. Bombardier should have to foot the bill for this. Their delay is the reason its happening.
salsa
Senior Member
robmausser
Senior Member
Then this is essentially still poor management as this is a horrendous decision for any company.
Not only is this terrible PR, but Toronto is having to pay $76 million to rebuild 30 ALRV streetcars to make up for the undelivered vehicles. We will have to probably rebuild more to accommodate for even more slow downs.
If the TTC sues Bombardier I believe they will be successful for the $50 million that was written into the contact and the $76 million + the costs of keeping these antiquated vehicles in service for well beyond their life expectancy.
So you are looking at losses in the hundreds of millions of dollars overall, plus terrible public relations and a possible banning of Toronto from using Bombardier, one of their largest customers.