[steveintoronto]

Good description/comparison here on "balloon" loop v stub end x-over: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_loop

Reminiscent of the "terminal v run-through" debate on rail stations, Toronto Union especially comes to mind on that. Just watching a CLRV lumber by here, and it dawned on me that the transition to pantograph operation drastically simplifies (with control system caveats and mu coupling) coupling single-ended cars back-to-back into multiple units that can reverse w/o loops. Needless to say, this his how ML is doing it on some LRT lines. With greater capacity from mu, headway would not be as demanding as single units, so the nature of operation would have to be complementary to realize the benefits v drawbacks.

Addendum: I have to wonder if a combination of both loop (mostly for single-ended) and a stub-track for reversible pairs could be an answer to the Union Station QQ east conundrum?

Perhaps even two stub tracks sharing an island platform, or one each side of the present tracks south of the loop to increase through-put for reversible consists?

From the link above:
[...]
Tram Systems[edit]
Balloon loops are used extensively on tramway systems with single-ended trams. Usually located at termini, the loop may be a single one-way track round a block. Single-ended trams have a cab at only one end and doors on one side, making them cheaper and having more space for passengers. On tram systems with double-ended trams balloon loops are not required but may still be used as they can provide greater turn-around capacity than a stub terminus; the Birmingham Corporation Tramways terminus at Rednal had a balloon loop in addition to the conventional stub tracks, providing extra capacity to handle weekend and bank holiday crowds visiting the nearby Lickey Hills. The Milan interurban tramway network, although using double-ended trams, had balloon loops at termini within the city limits so that they could be used as backup termini by the single directional trams used on urban service. In Milan, tramway depots are built as balloon loops, just as urban termini. Another example is in Potsdam, Germany.
[...]

 

[drum118]

Stub end terminals are cheaper, yes. But they are also slower, and don't allow for as tight a headway as loops do.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

That is true to a point. Unless you have headway under 2 minutes, it will make no different if its a loop or stub. At the same time, it allows the driver to move about and check the car.

The loop is good if the driver is late, as it allows the driver the to do a stop and go or continue on without stopping.

Can you relax with your snarky tone? I didn't claim that I was trying to win the competition by posting any information first. Clearly that's important to you, so good for you. I was merely posting what a Twitter account posted today.

Also, you said "If 4447 arrived this past Wed that is now tracking". What I posted from the Twitter account indicates the present condition instead of "if". You said 4446 entered service yesterday on the 512 and the Twitter account said it entered service today on the 510. I'll let members following this thread make their own judgement.

I was merely pointing out 4446 went into service on 512 yesterday as it was on it when I look. Based on where it was sitting Friday night, I was expecting it to be in service on Sat just like I expected 4444 last week. I am not out to win posting contest or anything since it not my style.

Also, I didn't have [sic] in my posting that you just posted. Since I was away and there is no real info as to when 4447 arrive than someone family member saying they saw it, that is why I used if for Wed.

 

[Allandale25]

Also, I didn't have [sic] in my posting that you just posted. Since I was away and there is no real info as to when 4447 arrive than someone family member saying they saw it, that is why I used if for Wed.

"[sic]" means the following:

"The Latin adverb sic ("thus"; "just as"; in full: sic erat scriptum, "thus was it written") inserted after a quoted word or passage indicates that the quoted matter has been transcribed exactly as found in the source text, complete with any erroneous or archaic spelling, surprising assertion, faulty reasoning, or other matter that might otherwise be taken as an error of transcription." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic

 

[drum118]

I been told many time that Skoka had the closes model to TTC current cars and this what it would look like if Skoka became a supplier to TTC. I can't recall if I was on a Skoka 5 section car in 2012 as it doesn't stand out like other suppliers.
Škoda to supply trams to Sofia

 

[smallspy]

That is true to a point. Unless you have headway under 2 minutes, it will make no different if its a loop or stub. At the same time, it allows the driver to move about and check the car.

The loop is good if the driver is late, as it allows the driver the to do a stop and go or continue on without stopping.

It's not true to a point - it's true absolutely, in all cases. You can have cars go out at any rate you want if there's a loop. If you have stub ended terminals, the terminal design (along with the signalling system, if there is one) will help to define just how low a headway you can have. Put the crossovers further away from the platforms, and your minimum possible headway goes up.

Imagine a situation where a delay is getting cleared, and there is a backlog of cars. With a return loop, they can just go through one-by-one, which is handy to get the people off of the vehicles. With a stub ended terminal, cars will back up and have to wait to enter the terminal to offload.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

"Flexity Tracker‏ @FlexityTracker 4447 is now undergoing testing. #FlexityTracker #TTC"

 

[dowlingm]

It's not true to a point - it's true absolutely, in all cases. You can have cars go out at any rate you want if there's a loop. If you have stub ended terminals, the terminal design (along with the signalling system, if there is one) will help to define just how low a headway you can have. Put the crossovers further away from the platforms, and your minimum possible headway goes up.

Imagine a situation where a delay is getting cleared, and there is a backlog of cars. With a return loop, they can just go through one-by-one, which is handy to get the people off of the vehicles. With a stub ended terminal, cars will back up and have to wait to enter the terminal to offload.

The difference with stub end terminals though is the separation from traffic. While some TTC loops are (Spadina, Union) most are not. This means in a congestion scenario you have streetcars waiting to turn into the loop but then when space is available may have to continue to wait to cross traffic.

With tail tracks, the passengers can disembark and then the streetcar can turn back with no interaction with other traffic.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Toronto did have "wye" tracks located on sidestreets. There used to be a wye at Hillside, in Mimico, where single-ended streetcars turned into. They had to back up, but they were there.

From link.

 

[drum118]

4448 is now tracking

 

[smallspy]

The difference with stub end terminals though is the separation from traffic. While some TTC loops are (Spadina, Union) most are not. This means in a congestion scenario you have streetcars waiting to turn into the loop but then when space is available may have to continue to wait to cross traffic.

With tail tracks, the passengers can disembark and then the streetcar can turn back with no interaction with other traffic.

Neither terminal design is predicated on particular type of location, though. There are lots of stub ended terminals located in the middle of roads. Melbourne, for starters, has a number of them.

Also congestion entering and exiting a station would happen regardless of how the tracks themselves are configured. For instance, the loop at Broadview Station is largely on-street but with off-street platforms/loading. Thus streetcars have to deal with traffic, both pedestrian and auto, entering and leaving the platforms. Switching to a stub ended platform there wouldn't change any of that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[drum118]

4447 & 4448 are currently on St Clair Doing burn in and testing. First time for 4448 that I know doing testing

 

[nfitz]

Even though I'm a bombardier fan, I have to admit that I never thought we'd get 70 cars
either. In fact, I don't even think we'll get 65. Based on this year my guess is 55.

TTC estimated 60 in a report to the board this week. Not sure if anything verbal was said in this weeks's meeting.

Has 4449 come yet?

Good question.

55 is probably the low end. 65 the high end.

 

[drum118]

TTC estimated 60 in a report to the board this week. Not sure if anything verbal was said in this weeks 's meeting.

[QUOTE="White Pine, post: 1265525, member: 65046]Has 4449 come yet?

Good question.

55 is probably the low end. 65 the high end.[/QUOTE]
If BBD continue to shop a car a week, 4449 should be ship this weekend and the only 1 out of 7 cars to be ship this month, unless something happens in the 5 days to change it.

4449-4455 are Oct cars.

If BBD only can ship a car a week, TTC will only have 4457 here by the end of the year and 13 cars short for the year delivery schedule.

To find out what took place on Monday at TTC meeting is to get a copy of the video of the meeting or someone to post some where about the fleet.

One thing that can change numbers is TTC allowing BBD to ship X cars in Dec uncompleted to be finish here like it was done in 2016. TTC would be very foolish to allow this to happen, as it will weaken their damage claim against BBD.

 

[White Pine]

If BBD continue to shop a car a week, 4449 should be ship this weekend and the only 1 out of 7 cars to be ship this month, unless something happens in the 5 days to change it.

4449-4455 are Oct cars.

If BBD only can ship a car a week, TTC will only have 4457 here by the end of the year and 13 cars short for the year delivery schedule.

To find out what took place on Monday at TTC meeting is to get a copy of the video of the meeting or someone to post some where about the fleet.

One thing that can change numbers is TTC allowing BBD to ship X cars in Dec uncompleted to be finish here like it was done in 2016. TTC would be very foolish to allow this to happen, as it will weaken their damage claim against BBD.

I realize the schedule makes for 65 cars, but this year they've managed to go from reliably 1-2 cars per month to 2-3 cars per month. While that's good news, it still won't be enough to get to 65 unless they ramp up output faster than they've managed to before. That's why I'm thinking there will be less than 60. Still way better than in years past, but probably not good enough to do what they say they will. That being said, (it might be just me), I feel like the last car or two has arrived with less fanfare, and so it's possible that they are quietly sending them through fast enough that 1 isn't a story. That's why I'm wondering if 4449 is here yet. If they can get 50 here by the end of October, I feel like they'll have a good start towards getting more than 55 done. Plus, if they do the same thing as last year, they could even be able to deliver in the 58-61 range. But if the rest of October is slow, I don't think they'll crack 60. Just a gut feeling, I don't have any evidence.

 

[drum118]

I realize the schedule makes for 65 cars, but this year they've managed to go from reliably 1-2 cars per month to 2-3 cars per month. While that's good news, it still won't be enough to get to 65 unless they ramp up output faster than they've managed to before. That's why I'm thinking there will be less than 60. Still way better than in years past, but probably not good enough to do what they say they will. That being said, (it might be just me), I feel like the last car or two has arrived with less fanfare, and so it's possible that they are quietly sending them through fast enough that 1 isn't a story. That's why I'm wondering if 4449 is here yet. If they can get 50 here by the end of October, I feel like they'll have a good start towards getting more than 55 done. Plus, if they do the same thing as last year, they could even be able to deliver in the 58-61 range. But if the rest of October is slow, I don't think they'll crack 60. Just a gut feeling, I don't have any evidence.

The only way 4449 can be here now. it miss been seen ppl who have first hand knowledge and access to the yards. 4449 is not here yet.

We see TTC having 57 to 65 here by the end of the year and let sit back and watch the show while eating popcorn to see what the real number will be. Going to be fun, considering it was supposed to be 70 beginning of the year.

Should we start talking about 2018 numbers now???