[yrt+viva=1system]

There's a rumor that 4400 was delivered without all the necessary electronics, computers and certain propulsion systems needed for it to be operational in order for Bombardier to meet the delivery deadline. Apparently Bombardier has their engineers and technicians on site to install the rest of the components; there's possibility that two streetcars will be tested on the streets at the same time.

This of course is just a rumor an can be only be taken as a grain of salt.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Queen Street and New Streetcars: Less Service, Fewer Stops, Wider Gaps?

Read More: http://stevemunro.ca/?p=7401


The Beach Metro Community News reports on a recent meeting to discuss traffic problems on the east end of Queen Street. Some comments echo the type of remarks one hears elsewhere in the city about increased traffic from redevelopment, the absolute essential nature of parking to prevent business bankruptcies, and the need to rebalance road space to serve all travellers, including cyclists, not just motorists.

- TTC’s Manager of Planning Mitch Stambler talked to the residents about plans to change the Queen Street route. With the new streetcars being introduced next year, two or three of the stops will be eliminated, said Stambler. This is a result of the length of the new streetcars. Stambler also admitted that less streetcars will run along Queen Street because of its increased capacity. Cost of operation and studies related to ridership will dictate how many and how often the new streetcars will run. One resident who lives at the east end of Queen Street expressed concerns with streetcars stopping idle near the Neville loop. Stambler said he hopes that with the decreased frequency of the bigger streetcars the issue will be eased.

- Add to this the highly irregular headways on Queen and other routes, any proposal to run fewer streetcars can only mean one thing: service, which declined substantially when headways were widened for the 75-foot long articulated light rail vehicles (ALRVs), will get even worse with the new larger low floor cars (LFLRVs). The TTC likes to talk about how running fewer cars will improve service by reducing the bunching inherent when cars are scheduled more frequently than traffic signal cycles. This does not, and has not, applied to Queen Street for many decades. Indeed, the TTC tries to make virtue out of wider headways by generalizing an hypothesis originally developed for a simulation of operations on the busy King streetcar downtown during peak periods. There is no comparison to the Queen car in The Beach.

.....

 

[Dan416]

The more stops they eliminate the better. Anything they can do to speed up the streetcar system. They should try banning cars from Queen St entirely lol

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The more stops they eliminate the better. Anything they can do to speed up the streetcar system. They should try banning cars from Queen St entirely lol

Make Queen one way with a streetcar ROW and perhaps a pedestrian mall and I'll be a happy camper. Traffic flow is improved, walking is easier and we'll have rapid transit on one of our most important streets.

 

[Dan416]

I never drive down Queen so I'm totally fine with making it a pedestrian mall

 

[doady]

Make Queen one way with a streetcar ROW and perhaps a pedestrian mall and I'll be a happy camper. Traffic flow is improved, walking is easier and we'll have rapid transit on one of our most important streets.

It wouldn't be rapid transit unless it was grade separated, and probably needs to have an all-door boarding scheme as well, but yeah transit along Queen would be much better regardless.

Personally, I think all the streetcar lines (i.e. traditional light rail) should be upgraded to "LRT" (i.e. modern light rail). They should have station and all-door boarding at least. It makes sense to have single unified brand. Streetcar vs. LRT makes no sense.

I still think King and Queen should be converted into one-way for car while streetcar would be bidirection, full or partly in ROW.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Or one of them gets subway service which is required.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It wouldn't be rapid transit unless it was grade separated, and probably needs to have an all-door boarding scheme as well, but yeah transit along Queen would be much better regardless.

Personally, I think all the streetcar lines (i.e. traditional light rail) should be upgraded to "LRT" (i.e. modern light rail). They should have station and all-door boarding at least. It makes sense to have single unified brand. Streetcar vs. LRT makes no sense.

I still think King and Queen should be converted into one-way for car while streetcar would be bidirection, full or partly in ROW.

Upgrading all our streetcar lines to LRT with full grade separation would be quite expensive. And the politics of it all would make it next to impossible. But it is something that I would like to see done. It would make travelling around the city significantly faster.

I never drive down Queen so I'm totally fine with making it a pedestrian mall

I love your logic

 

[doady]

I didn't say streetcars should be fully grade-separated. Most modern LRT is not grade-separated after all. Just making the streetcars have stations (no more stop requests) and all-door boarding enough to unify old streetcar and new LRT into one system. Some streetcars already have ROW. The streetcars are called "Light Rail Vehicles" (LRVs) also. When the new streetcars arrive the distinction between streetcar and "LRT" will be even more vague. And then there's the fact that some of new LRT lines will operate in tunnels with underground stations like the subway too, but without the fare-paid zones. There is a lot of overlap here. I think the TTC needs to think carefully about this.

 

[car4041]

Just making the streetcars have stations (no more stop requests) and all-door boarding enough to unify old streetcar and new LRT into one system.

Why in the world would we want the streetcars to always stop at every single stop, whether or not anyone wants to get on or off? That would just slow them down even more! There are aspects of LRT operation that the streetcar system could emulate, but this is definitely not one of them!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I didn't say streetcars should be fully grade-separated. Most modern LRT is not grade-separated after all. Just making the streetcars have stations (no more stop requests) and all-door boarding enough to unify old streetcar and new LRT into one system. Some streetcars already have ROW. The streetcars are called "Light Rail Vehicles" (LRVs) also.

My bad. When I said grade separated I really meant to say right-of-way.

When the new streetcars arrive the distinction between streetcar and "LRT" will be even more vague. And then there's the fact that some of new LRT lines will operate in tunnels with underground stations like the subway too, but without the fare-paid zones. There is a lot of overlap here. I think the TTC needs to think carefully about this.

Why is the distinction between LRT and streetcar relevant? All that matters is that it gets people to where they want to be.

Why in the world would we want the streetcars to always stop at every single stop, whether or not anyone wants to get on or off? That would just slow them down even more! There are aspects of LRT operation that the streetcar system could emulate, but this is definitely not one of them!

I imagine that doady would get rid of quite a few stops. Right now many streetcar stops are less than 50-100m apart. 300-600m would be more appropriate.

 

[car4041]

Right now many streetcar stops are less than 50-100m apart. 300-600m would be more appropriate.

I don't think there are "many" stops less than 50m apart! There aren't even that many less than 100m (but yes, there are some, which could stand to be consolidated). But in any case, I don't see how this relates to forcing the streetcar to always make every stop. If nobody wants to get on or off, what's the point of adding the delay? "Because LRTs do it" isn't a reason...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't think there are "many" stops less than 50m apart! There aren't even that many less than 100m (but yes, there are some, which could stand to be consolidated). But in any case, I don't see how this relates to forcing the streetcar to always make every stop. If nobody wants to get on or off, what's the point of adding the delay? "Because LRTs do it" isn't a reason...

Many may have been an over exaggeration on my part . But a quick look on Google maps shows that stations are often less than 200m apart. That is way too close for the streetcars to ever become an LRT which is what Doady was suggesting. If we want to upgrade them to LRT stops need to be at the very least 400m apart. And then have proper island style stops like on the St. Clair ROW.

Speaking of the stops, there are many areas on some routes where that may not be possible. Roncesvalles Avenue comes to mind.

 

[doady]

Yeah, typical LRT stop spacing is around 500m. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand, maybe I wasn't clear enough. To upgrade the current streetcar system to modern LRT, it has to be more like modern LRT, which means modern LRT stop spacing.

Why is the distinction between LRT and streetcar relevant? All that matters is that it gets people to where they want to be.

Exactly, that's my point. The distinction between LRT and streetcar isn't very relevant. Especially in Toronto.

Currently, there is no distincton between streetcar and bus in Toronto. They are both drawn the same way on the map. With the exception of 501 and its POP system, they work the same way. If you know how to use the bus, you know how to use the streetcar too.

But with the new streetcars, things will be different because they are modern light rail vehicles. 504 King or Eglinton Crosstown, they will both use the Flexity Outlook. Would it be clear to riders that they are supposed use 504 King more like a bus instead of like Eglinton Crosstown?

 

[nhui06]

Removal of only 2-3 Queen St streetcar stops seem minimal considering how long this line is. I think every stop needs to be evaluated (that goes for all the streetcar stops once the implement the new streetcar) and see if there are any unnecessary stops that can be removed.