evandyk
Senior Member
That was the trial level decision. There was an appeal, which I linked to above, and quoted the relevant paragraphs.
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- Thread starter drum118
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That was the trial level decision. There was an appeal, which I linked to above, and quoted the relevant paragraphs.
turbanplanner
Senior Member
Who could have predicted, a union putting their head in the sand
T3G
Senior Member
No self respecting worker would ever put the interests of their clients ahead of their own. And why should they? When, in the entire sordid history of labour rights (or, for that matter, human rights), has anyone gained anything by timidly taking notice of the people their protests have inconvenienced?
As I said before, the solution may be as simple as a stipulation requiring that the TTC find new positions for these operators elsewhere, like they did with the implementation of OPTO on line 1, but anyone who would roll over and accept the possibility that they may be made redundant, but that the result would be a better experience for the client, could be most charitably described as a naive, overly idealistic schmuck (there are also less family friendly words I would personally choose). The current arrangements sucks, but there needs to be an actual discussion and agreement reached, telling operators that they'll be made redundant and to suck it up for the good of the passenger is a fantastic way to poison the well. As we see when shit hits the fan and they go on strike, they are not people you want as your enemy.
turbanplanner
Senior Member
For a government service, public opinion is their biggest asset/liability. When Canada post went on strike (for reasonable grounds) what good will they had went out the window.
I feel this would be a fair compromise, the city is growing and I hear there is a lot of hiring going on. But we don't know if this has been offered let alone if they'd accept it.
T3G
Senior Member
How so? Regardless of whether people hate their transit drivers and postal workers, they still need transit and mail delivery. People have reviled government workers, especially the TTC, for decades - you'll be very hard pressed to find someone on social media that doesn't think them to be overpaid fat cats. (Those people are incredibly stupid, but in no way in the minority). I can't imagine what effect that has had on TTC employees, other than the fact that they tend to be colder and less approachable than those on suburban transit systems or even on GO. (But who can blame them? I certainly can't).
True, but if it has been offered, I would be surprised to hear it got rejected, since essentially those operators would just be driving elsewhere. At the end of the day, I can't imagine whether they continue running on routes running into Mississauga and York Region is that fundamental of an issue, what's important is that they keep their jobs.
If it hasn't been offered, well, that tells you everything you need to know about the people running the ship.
turbanplanner
Senior Member
81-717
Active Member
T3G
Senior Member
If that's the case then they are pretty much SOL either way, as public opinion has not been for the TTC for as long as I have been conscious of the world, and any form of punitive action, including strikes, work to rules, or any extent of service withdrawal, will just enrage the public more. In certain circles, the mere suggestion that they deserve to be paid more is in itself enough to get people foaming at the mouth. But this is why I don't support legislating them back to work. That sort of practice has no business in any society that claims to care about workers' rights.
I also find Kinnear to be a loud-mouthed prick who has done irreparable damage to the PR of the TTC union.
I would be astounded if there were no strikes at that point, as the mass unemployment that will be the natural result of widespread automation will make every single grievance the union has had in their entire history seem utterly trivial by comparison.
drum118
Superstar
In this day of technology, jobs are being lost as things can be done faster and cheaper than human. No one has a right to work at one place for all their life as things change over time and one must adjust to it. Companies come and go based on the market they are in as well how they are run
Every company and unions have an issue as how to pay for the retirement funds as more workers are retiring when they put in the require time than the 65 year level to do so with less workers replacing them. Those new workers are paying a higher percentage to the retirement program to make up for the smaller workforce compared to what the retire worker was paying.
Pension plans and funds take x $ yearly and invest in things that will generate extra funds to help play the retirement funds for the retire worker as well generate more funds to cover the short fall or poor investment. Your CPP is done this way.
Union can be their own worse enemy by not adjusting to the changing times and living in the past.
Every company and unions have an issue as how to pay for the retirement funds as more workers are retiring when they put in the require time than the 65 year level to do so with less workers replacing them. Those new workers are paying a higher percentage to the retirement program to make up for the smaller workforce compared to what the retire worker was paying.
Pension plans and funds take x $ yearly and invest in things that will generate extra funds to help play the retirement funds for the retire worker as well generate more funds to cover the short fall or poor investment. Your CPP is done this way.
Union can be their own worse enemy by not adjusting to the changing times and living in the past.
T3G
Senior Member
But you realize why people fight tooth and nail against these changes, right? It's because looking for a new job is horrible at the best of times. Imagine you've worked at a place for 20, 30 years, are not quite yet at retirement age, but you've been suddenly told that they don't need you, and that you're out on your own. Finding new work isn't easy, and it's not going to get any easier as more jobs go the way of the dodo bird due to automation. There's no guarantee that someone would even be able to find a new job - my grandfather, in 1989, was made redundant in the wake of restructuring at the bus line where he worked after the fall of communism in Czechoslovakia, struggled obscenely to find new work in the small town where he lived, and ended up going into premature retirement at the age of 55, with his fortunes declining accordingly. And that was back when widespread automation was a pie in the sky fantasy!!! Imagine how much worse it would be now, never mind 15, 20, 30 years from now!
Why should the union adjust to the changing times, if the changing of the times means that their membership will be made redundant? That's not the point of a union. As I said before, any sensible worker should be looking out for themselves, in a society that is quite content with throwing them overboard to save a little more money.
drum118
Superstar
Look at the steel mills that used to exist and were replace by concrete and precast. Where many jobs were lost, some of those cities are a shell of what they used to be now and I been to many of them. Only have to go to Buffalo and Detroit to see it.
Then there is the automobile industries, the railways, newspaper companies, the telephone companies, steel fabricators, and the list go on that have seen 100 of 1,000's jobs lost.
You want to talk about Europe, there are vast number of huge railway yard that been empty for decades and where did those workers go? Small town take a beating as it could have only one industries in it or the area that people have chose to remain and do nothing or move to another city. We have the same thing in NA.
Look at what taking place for office workers these day that some are now working from home which means less transit riders that lead to cut in service or elimination of routes.
You can fight to stop progress, but it is failure to doom as those changes will take place one way or another. We have enter a timeframe that there will be more retire people than workers until about 2050 or so. How do you fill those vacant jobs when the majority those workers not wanting to get their hands dirty or do the hard labour, let alone servicing you coffee or food when you want to go out for a night on the town??
I have been a member of a union and will never be one again.
T3G
Senior Member
So you can point to countless settlements which were totally devastated by industry leaving, cities which were once viable for life until the companies that were their life blood gave up on them, and in the same breath you say that fighting against job losses is being stuck in the past?
This only goes on for as long as society collectively agrees to bend and spread for the corporate criminals that call the shots and would sell their own mothers to make a little extra money. Given how many people on the internet are totally over the moon for automation, I suspect that by the time we all wake up and smell the devastation, it will be far too late to turn back. And we will collectively deserve it, for being horrifically greedy and not knowing when to leave well enough alone.
evandyk
Senior Member
Strike averted for now.
Bibi L
Active Member
There will not be a strike for Friday, as they have reached a framework settlement, a tentative deal. The strike is currently on hold, but there is still a chance for a strike, we’ll only know when union members have voted on it.
Northern Light
Superstar
CBC's take on the non-strike: