[robmausser]

Dec 5
Caught this new Metrolinx Fare Machine on Bathurst St and the first one I have seen so far. There was also one at St George Station wrap also.

Thats great, and will also speed up streetcars.

These should come with displays that show the "next streetcar" information on them. I mean, kill two birds with one stone with installing these.

Plus, maybe I don't want to pay if I know that a streetcar is 30 minutes delayed.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They are very similar to those in the new streetcars - except that Presto isn't enabled. They've been at many stops on Spadina and Queens Quay for almost a year.

Well given they neither take Presto nor diced carrots, they could call it a veggiematic.

Metrolinx is installing fare machines without presto? Well that's bizzare. I wonder what their excuse it for that.

So does things think only sell cash fares?

 

[nfitz]

So does things think only sell cash fares?

No, takes tokens as well. And ultimately debit/credit.

The logic is that all the vehicles, you can simply tap on with Presto already, but if you have a token or cash, you'd have to use a similar machine on the streetcars.

Thats great, and will also speed up streetcars.

I can see that it makes the chaos once one has boarded a busy streetcar simpler, if many are buying fares. But how does it speed up the streetcars - you buy on board after the doors are closed, en route to the next stop.

 

[robmausser]

you buy on board after the doors are closed, en route to the next stop.

Unfortunately that works great in theory.

If you have ever boarded a crush load new streetcar, it doesn't work so well. The line to the machines sometimes gums up the works so badly that it delays people getting off, and thus getting on. It creates a bottlneck on the streetcar.

This is especially true for Presto, which is a tap at the door, and then you need to go to the machine.

Ontop of that, the new streetcars wont be everywhere until 2020..or later it seems.

If we deploy these at busy intersections everywhere, we can get the old streetcars moving a lot smoother by say, 2017.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Man this is so true. Even driving, in Toronto, there are so many times where I am driving later in the evening and stopped at an intersection on a major road, for what? For NOTHING. No cars, no pedestrians, nadda.

Then take Vancouver for example, where during evening hours, the major road's traffic lights turn into "stop signs", where the major road is solid green and the side streets get a flashing red light to proceed through like a stop sign. It's amazing.

The traffic signals at minor intersections in Toronto used to turn into the "flashing yellow/red" signals, after midnight or later. Nowadays, they activate their phases when vehicles get over the road sensors.

In Europe, they have "intelligent" signals that cancel, shorten, or lengthen pedestrian signals depending on long the pedestrian takes (or not) to cross. They don't even have to press a button, just standing at the corner is enough to activate the pedestrian signals.

 

[PinkLucy]

Unfortunately that works great in theory.

If you have ever boarded a crush load new streetcar, it doesn't work so well. The line to the machines sometimes gums up the works so badly that it delays people getting off, and thus getting on. It creates a bottlneck on the streetcar.

This is especially true for Presto, which is a tap at the door, and then you need to go to the machine.

Ontop of that, the new streetcars wont be everywhere until 2020..or later it seems.

If we deploy these at busy intersections everywhere, we can get the old streetcars moving a lot smoother by say, 2017.

During rush hour, people have worked out a system of passing up their Presto cards to the person closest to the machine. It's like an old-fashioned fire brigade, only it's a Presto brigade

 

[nfitz]

Unfortunately that works great in theory.

If you have ever boarded a crush load new streetcar, it doesn't work so well. The line to the machines sometimes gums up the works so badly that it delays people getting off, and thus getting on. It creates a bottlneck on the streetcar.

Which stop are you seeing this on the new streetcars that hasn't already had these machines for almost a year?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

During rush hour, people have worked out a system of passing up their Presto cards to the person closest to the machine. It's like an old-fashioned fire brigade, only it's a Presto brigade

Ha really? That's one of the most quintessential Canadian things I've read in a long time.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Unfortunately that works great in theory.

If you have ever boarded a crush load new streetcar, it doesn't work so well. The line to the machines sometimes gums up the works so badly that it delays people getting off, and thus getting on. It creates a bottlneck on the streetcar.

This is especially true for Presto, which is a tap at the door, and then you need to go to the machine.

Ontop of that, the new streetcars wont be everywhere until 2020..or later it seems.

If we deploy these at busy intersections everywhere, we can get the old streetcars moving a lot smoother by say, 2017.

It would be a good idea to install several mid car presto readers. That way people don't have to fight to scan their cards the moment they board.

 

[PinkLucy]

I think I've seen them on some of the older cars -- not activated yet but there. The issue isn't scanning as you board as much as it is getting the transfer -- at least on the 509, they frequently check for transfers (or proof of payment at least) upon arrival at Union so most Presto users tap on entry but then have to go to the machine to get the transfer -- that's where the Presto brigade comes in.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Imagine how much relief would be provided if phase 1 of the DRL went one extra stop west to Spadina? Two extra to Bathurst? I don't have much hope for this however.

Bathurst and Spading weren't even evaluated for potential stations: http://reliefline.ca/current-work/psa-results

This is my biggest issue with the DRL studies.

I am wondering if their logic is that extension to Spadina/Bathurst is incentive enough for a future expansion to Sunnyside/Dundas West?

 

[Megaton327]

Which stop are you seeing this on the new streetcars that hasn't already had these machines for almost a year?

Bremner and Spadina is one excellent example, in either direction depending on time of day.

 

[reaperexpress]

I've made a list of everything I think should be done right now (as in not long term) to aid in the flow of streetcars through the city.

I'm wondering if some people can comment on whats been done already, as I am not always sure, and offer any advice.

1. Traffic light control. (This is where an approaching TTC streetcar delays a light going red) - Apparently these are enabled, but damn if I could tell. They don't seem to be aggressive enough if they are.

2. Enforce the King ROW during rush hour. (I wonder how this could be enforced better, any ideas? License plate cameras like on the 407, ticket cars in the mail?)

3. Remove close streetcar stops. (Seems to be started, but at a snails pace aka TTC speed)

4. All door boarding. (Its just been started on the entire streetcar system, YAY! https://twitter.com/bradTTC/status/671810948479492096)

5. Illegal street parking (seems to be better after more enforcement, thoughts? I feel like on busy sections, street parking should be removed entirely)

Anything i'm missing?

The good news is that all but one of these (King ROW enforcement) are already underway.

1. Nearly all signals on streetcar routes already have Transit Signal Priority (TSP) which can extend green lights and shorten reds (though it can rarely shorten the cross street by more than a couple seconds due to required pedestrian crossing time). The main issues are pretty much as smably said, with wide variation in travel times through the detection zones. Hopefully the move to all-door loading will help by making dwell times more consistent. Eliminating stops can also help for the same reason. The biggest improvement I can see with respect to the TSP system would be to use phase insertion or rotation to allow waiting/approaching streetcars on dedicated ROWs move ahead of left turning cars. I'm only aware of one place in the city this is currently used for a straight-through movement. It's pretty easy to implement, it's just a matter of the City deciding that transit should receive a better level of service. Another benefit could be to use conditional priority, where late streetcars get higher priority than early ones. This would be especially helpful on high-frequency routes like Spadina where some streetcars may not get priority simply because another streetcar just passed through with priority.

3. Snail's pace it may be, but this is due to the mountains of obstacles placed up against the TTC by local citizens groups and councillors, not lack of trying on their part.

TSP already works that way -- you'll often see the signal change as soon as the streetcar enters the intersection. The issue is that it can't hold the light green indefinitely. I think the transit vehicle gets a 30-second green extension. Could it be extended? Sure, but keep in mind that pedestrians can't cross in any direction during the TSP phase, so longer green extensions would inconvenience more than just cars.

Almost. The maximum extension is indeed 30 seconds, but only 16 seconds of that is allowed to be during a Don't Walk indication for pedestrians (for example 14 during Walk and 16 during Don't Walk). At most intersections, all of the extension is provided during Walk which avoids Green/Don't Walk altogether. However that comes at the expense of motor traffic efficiency (lots of unneeded extension) and increased delays to people crossing the transit street.

 

[reaperexpress]

The TTC and TSP arent serious about transit signal issues.

Take the 501 for example; on The Queensway at South Kingsway there is a signal that stops both cars and streetcars for pedestrians only. The light will stop traffic (including streetcars) even if there are no pedestrians crossing and it holds traffic up for about 2 mins. Instead of having that, if they implemented a system where the lights would change only with a pedestrian pressing the cross button that would make things a lot more efficient.

Another example can be seen when streetcars are entering and exiting Humber Loop (late in the evening and overnight). It is not uncommon to see the transit signal on red while no cars are crossing Lake Shore, but yet the light will still hold a streetcar at the signal for up to 3 mins.

Simple fixes can solve these issues and improve service, but does the TTC or TSP care? Nope, not one bit.

I'm assuming that when you say TSP you mean ITSO, the City's signal operations people.

That signal on The Queensway already operates using a pedestrian pushbutton. If the pedestrian signal is coming up when there's no pedestrian, then it's broken and you should call 311. And looking on Google Earth, the crossing distance is 31.7 which means that the timing is probably 7 sec Walk, 27 sec flashing Don't Walk and 4 sec All-way Red. That adds up to 38 seconds, which means that you really need to get your stopwatch checked.

But even when it's working properly it could be still be improved. Separating the crossing into three independent signals (WB, Transit, EB) would vastly reduce delay for everyone. The one-way car signals could be perfectly co-ordinated with Windermere (unlike the current 2-way signal) and the transit signal could easily guarantee a green for streetcars by detecting them far enough away to finish the pedestrian countdown. And pedestrians wouldn't need to wait as long to cross, since the car signals could respond instantly during the portions of the cycle where cars would get stopped at the previous/next signal anyway, and the transit signal would display Walk whenever there's no streetcar approaching (i.e pretty much all the time).

The main advantage of the current layout is that it's way cheaper since it's all operated together with one set of equipment. The city probably just decided that it wasn't worth the amount of (tax) money it would cost to achieve an excellent level of service there.

A couple other similar intersections are the two on Fleet Street/Lakeshore west of Bathurst: Operating Fleet independently from Lakeshore would vastly reduce delays for both pedestrians and transit.

If the Humber Loop signal is delaying streetcars for 3 minutes, then it's broken and you should call 311. When it's working properly it provides near-zero delay to streetcars - just like you'd find in the top transit cities in Europe.

It is rather ignorant to claim that no one cares simply on the basis that there are signals you don't like, and claiming that quick fixes don't happen is simply prejudiced and false.

Also note that in any infrastructure operating organization, when there is something that could be improved and another thing that is broken, fixing the latter will always take precedence.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A question for signal priority experts. I've noticed at a specific intersection on the 32 Eglinton West, every time the bus stops for passengers (probably 90% of the time) the light turns red, causing the bus to be delayed longer. Is this a badly calibrated signal priority?