[dowlingm]

There seems to be an element of an "at the discretion of the operator" policy, which will inevitably cause issues.

This is a really substantial change in the roles and responsibilities for TTC operators, and I hope TTC management is taking sufficient effort to communicate these changes to their staff.

Wrinkles! https://twitter.com/bradttc/status/678184193092886529

 

[pstogios]

What is the point of the 510 short turn at King?

Is TTC not aware of the huge population at Cityplace? Why is TTC giving Cityplace such a slap in the face by making us wait huge wait times for a car?

Perhaps they enjoy dealing with the logjam at the Charlotte loop. Easy solution - eliminate it.

This is a huge problem and I was wondering if anyone knew what is its point and if/when we will ever see this go away.

 

[Filip]

What is the point of the 510 short turn at King?

Is TTC not aware of the huge population at Cityplace? Why is TTC giving Cityplace such a slap in the face by making us wait huge wait times for a car?

Perhaps they enjoy dealing with the logjam at the Charlotte loop. Easy solution - eliminate it.

This is a huge problem and I was wondering if anyone knew what is its point and if/when we will ever see this go away.

Same reason why the TTC in its infinite wisdom is now splitting the 501 and forcing ALL Humber Bay residents to switch streetcars at Humber. Here we were for years discussing how to eliminate the loop and short turns, and they make them permanent!

They keep giving me reasons to avoid them.. Love it!

 

[nfitz]

What is the point of the 510 short turn at King?

Because demand is higher from King north to Bloor.

Is TTC not aware of the huge population at Cityplace? Why is TTC giving Cityplace such a slap in the face by making us wait huge wait times for a car?.

Are streetcars south of King overcrowded? That hasn't been my experience, though I seldom am there at AM peak.

Same reason why the TTC in its infinite wisdom is now splitting the 501 and forcing ALL Humber Bay residents to switch streetcars at Humber.

No, completely different reason. This is being done to improve reliability, and focus the larger ARLV cars on the busier portion east of Humber. There's been a significant increase in streetcar frequency between Long Branch and Humber - the catch is however the changing cars.

 

[pstogios]

Because demand is higher from King north to Bloor.

Are streetcars south of King overcrowded? That hasn't been my experience, though I seldom am there at AM peak.

No, completely different reason. This is being done to improve reliability, and focus the larger ARLV cars on the busier portion east of Humber. There's been a significant increase in streetcar frequency between Long Branch and Humber - the catch is however the changing cars.

Yes the streetcars are crowded south of King. There is usually a big crowd waiting for cars at Bremner. I live there and I see this every day at AM peak. This poor service is particularly frustrating on bitterly cold days like these past two.

 

[nfitz]

Yes the streetcars are crowded south of King. There is usually a big crowd waiting for cars at Bremner. I live there and I see this every day at AM peak. This poor service is particularly frustrating on bitterly cold days like these past two.

My gosh. How many cars go by full before you can squeeze on?

 

[Napoleon]

Yes the streetcars are crowded south of King. There is usually a big crowd waiting for cars at Bremner. I live there and I see this every day at AM peak. This poor service is particularly frustrating on bitterly cold days like these past two.

The short turn at King drives people nuts...I can't imagine a worse place to short turn as it takes forever to get the vehicles turned around:

• The left turn from Spadina onto Adelaide takes a long time, sometimes more than one cycle.
• The right onto Charlotte cuts across the cycle track.
• The right turns onto both King and Spadina then snarl both lanes of traffic and streetcar traffic on the 504.
• Zero route oversight occurs when the vehicle heads back northbound on King often resulting in extra bunching on the 510.

I would suggest Queens Quay is the minimum level of service that should be reached on the 510. It's kind of nuts for such a short route to have 3 branches. Simplify it to two and route management will be markedly improved. Further improvement would be realized with better signal management of the QQ loop.

 

[nfitz]

It's kind of nuts for such a short route to have 3 branches. Simplify it to two and route management will be markedly improved.

But that's exactly what this month's service change does. On weekdays there's only 2 branches (King and Union) now instead of 3. And on weekends there's only Union and Queens Quay instead of all 3.

Of course, now that the route is fully converted to the larger Flexity vehicles there are less streetcars running.

There are now 12 streetcars at AM peak instead of 15; 14 streetcars in mid-afternoon and PM peak instead of 21. But that's still a big increase in capacity.

But we all knew that introducing the longer streetcars was going to mean less frequency, on the busiest routes.

And surely that's a good thing, as there shouldn't be as much getting stuck on a light while the platform ahead clears, or getting stuck at the subway station because the platform is full.

The complaints seem to be about service south of King in AM peak. But looking at the schedule change, the frequency south of King has been improved from 8 minutes to 7 minutes; while the frequency north of King has changed from 2.67 minutes to 3.5 minutes. So it is worse in the last 2 days than previously? And if so, is it just teething problems?

 

[Napoleon]

But that's exactly what this month's service change does. On weekdays there's only 2 branches (King and Union) now instead of 3. And on weekends there's only King and Queens Quay instead of all 3.

Of course, now that the route is fully converted to the larger Flexity vehicles there are less streetcars running.

There are now 12 streetcars at AM peak instead of 15; 14 streetcars in mid-afternoon and PM peak instead of 21. But that's still a big increase in capacity.

But we all knew that introducing the longer streetcars was going to mean less frequency, on the busiest routes.

And surely that's a good thing, as there shouldn't be as much getting stuck on a light while the platform ahead clears, or getting stuck at the subway station because the platform is full.

The complaints seem to be about service south of King in AM peak. But looking at the schedule change, the frequency south of King has been improved from 8 minutes to 7 minutes; while the frequency north of King has changed from 2.67 minutes to 3.5 minutes. So it is worse in the last 2 days than previously? And if so, is it just teething problems?

This is all very interesting. I don't ride the 510 as often as I observe it. Part of that, is that it's often not that much faster than walking speed and suffers from a brutal amount of bunching.

So on weekends, how does one get to Union? Will one have to change at QQ to a 509 streetcar? I haven't yet observed what's going on with the King short turns yet, but I can't imagine more short turns are better.

Also from what I've seen it's about 75% Flexities in recent days...still a number of ALRVs and CLRVs on the route.

 

[Filip]

Because demand is higher from King north to Bloor.

Are streetcars south of King overcrowded? That hasn't been my experience, though I seldom am there at AM peak.

No, completely different reason. This is being done to improve reliability, and focus the larger ARLV cars on the busier portion east of Humber. There's been a significant increase in streetcar frequency between Long Branch and Humber - the catch is however the changing cars.

The catch is the deal breaker. The TTC is unable to schedule things properly, so I can see folks getting off at Humber and waiting 10+ minutes for the other car to show up. That was mainly the reason the 507 was done away with.

I just don't understand how such a dense neighbourhood can't have reliable transit. It's mind boggling and flies in the face of all the bullshit planning and the TTC blow out of their ass.

 

[pstogios]

My gosh. How many cars go by full before you can squeeze on?

Just stop your bullshit.

Ever since this short turn was re-introduced a few weeks ago, it has been faster for me to walk from Bremner to King (a 12 minute walk), then wait less than 30 seconds to catch a car, than to wait for a car to show up at Bremner.

I don't care what the schedule says, cars are not coming every six to seven minutes south of King.

And how about this?

https://twitter.com/megaton479/status/684425096396681218

Megaton479
@SwanBoatSteve @torontopeter @joe_cressy @JoshColle @bradTTC I regularly wait 20-30 minutes northbound at Queen's Quay.
1/5/16, 12:23 PM

 

[nfitz]

This is all very interesting. I don't ride the 510 as often as I observe it. Part of that, is that it's often not that much faster than walking speed and suffers from a brutal amount of bunching.

Hopefully the reduced frequency will reduce the bunching and delays, making it faster than walking!

So on weekends, how does one get to Union? Will one have to change at QQ to a 509 streetcar? I haven't yet observed what's going on with the King short turns yet, but I can't imagine more short turns are better.

Oh, sorry. Weekend is QQ and Union. One thing that seems to be happening, is that more cars are being turned at King than they are supposed to. The other is that ALRVs are being used on the Union branch, and they are all being turned at QQ, to keep them out of the Bay tunnel with the steep grade.

Also from what I've seen it's about 75% Flexities in recent days...still a number of ALRVs and CLRVs on the route.

9 Flexities and 5 ALRVs today for mid-day.

The catch is the deal breaker. The TTC is unable to schedule things properly, so I can see folks getting off at Humber and waiting 10+ minutes for the other car to show up. That was mainly the reason the 507 was done away with.

This is temporary. TTC can't even get enough ALRVs in service yesterday and today to run from Humber Loop to Neville. Once the streetcar shortage ends, it will end. In the meantime though, there is a higher scheduled frequency and hopefully improved service from Humber Loop to Long Branch. As a regular 506 user, the changes they made back in September to that route, have made it much more usable. So there is hope.

 

[nfitz]

My gosh. How many cars go by full before you can squeeze on?

Just stop your bullshit.

??? You said that it's over crowded (in AM peak I asssume), and we all know that the streetcars frequently leave people behind when it's overcrowded in rush hour. I'm simply and politely inquiring how bad it is, as it's obviously worse than I'd realized.

I have no idea why you think such extreme and utter rudeness and profanity is appropriate, to a polite query. Please be civil.

I'm also still interested in how many streetcars you have to wait before you can squeeze on. If you outburst is trying to imply that the crowding isn't EVER that bad (which surprises me given that most streetcar routes have this problem in rush hour, as soon as there is a gap), then I'm confused why you think they need to increase service south of King.

 

[pstogios]

??? You said that it's over crowded (in AM peak I asssume), and we all know that the streetcars frequently leave people behind when it's overcrowded in rush hour. I'm simply and politely inquiring how bad it is, as it's obviously worse than I'd realized.

I have no idea why you think such extreme and utter rudeness and profanity is appropriate, to a polite query. Please be civil.

I too would like to be civil. I felt your comment was patronizing as I interpreted it as implying that if I don't have to wait for multiple streetcars (which I don't) then my complaint is illegitimate. So I replied the way I did. This was a misunderstanding then and I apologize.

I'm also still interested in how many streetcars you have to wait before you can squeeze on. If you outburst is trying to imply that the crowding isn't EVER that bad (which surprises me given that most streetcar routes have this problem in rush hour, as soon as there is a gap), then I'm confused why you think they need to increase service south of King.

I never have to wait for multiple cars but the wait times are much more than the scheduled levels. So I feel my complaint was legitimate, and this has been echoed by others (including Steve Munro on Twitter). Splitting the 510 into two branches, one stopping at QQ and the other at Union should be a good compromise; how can this be communicated to the TTC is my next question.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I too would like to be civil. I felt your comment was patronizing as I interpreted it as implying that if I don't have to wait for multiple streetcars (which I don't) then my complaint is illegitimate. So I replied the way I did. This was a misunderstanding then and I apologize.

I really can't understand how you saw anything patronizing in @nfitz's comment.