[amnesiajune]

Can the TTC not cut the overkill services? Look at the Sheppard subway - does it really need to run until 2 am? Wouldn't we save some money by replacing it with a more frequent 190 bus service late at night? And with Presto being implemented, does every station need to have staff? Can't we save some money by automating fare collection and charging the same $3.25 cash fare for everyone who doesn't have a child/student/senior Presto card? And for that matter, this is probably a more effective way to get the message across if you're completely opposed to the cuts. Saying "nope, nothing we can do" sounds a lot less honest than saying "the only thing we can do is cut service" and giving people an idea of what services would need cutting.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I think the biggest problem is Tory is trying to run the city like a business because he is a business man with no political experience at all. He's doing the same thing Ford did because Ford wasted all of the Money that Miller left after his time in office the City had a budget surplus thath could have been used for along time but Ford used all of it in his first budget because he didn't want to raise property tax and he got rid of vehicle registration fees because "the war on the car was over."

 

[Steve X]

Can the TTC not cut the overkill services? Look at the Sheppard subway - does it really need to run until 2 am? Wouldn't we save some money by replacing it with a more frequent 190 bus service late at night? And with Presto being implemented, does every station need to have staff? Can't we save some money by automating fare collection and charging the same $3.25 cash fare for everyone who doesn't have a child/student/senior Presto card? And for that matter, this is probably a more effective way to get the message across if you're completely opposed to the cuts. Saying "nope, nothing we can do" sounds a lot less honest than saying "the only thing we can do is cut service" and giving people an idea of what services would need cutting.

They should really just close the Sheppard Subway on weekends and run 2 trains instead of 4 on weekdays after 10. Cutting the Sheppard subway after 10pm would require more buses to be dispatched which may not result in a large saving when lots of deadheading is involved.

 

[dowlingm]

They should really just close the Sheppard Subway on weekends and run 2 trains instead of 4 on weekdays after 10. Cutting the Sheppard subway after 10pm would require more buses to be dispatched which may not result in a large saving when lots of deadheading is involved.

Train labour cost already being reduced 50pc by one person operation on Sheppard. Station running cost same whether 2 or 4 trains.

 

[Jonny5]

They should really just close the Sheppard Subway on weekends and run 2 trains instead of 4 on weekdays after 10. Cutting the Sheppard subway after 10pm would require more buses to be dispatched which may not result in a large saving when lots of deadheading is involved.

We already went through this exercise! Giambrone did it. The costs of running buses are higher. It doesn't matter how you attempt to run the bus service it's a money loser. It's not even close. Like for fuck sake it was less than 10 years ago this was literally proposed, studied at great expense, and found to be financial lunacy. Like there were zero situations where it wouldn't be a massive money sink. Why is this total stupidity even being discussed here?

 

[amnesiajune]

Is it? At the $2.00/boarding figure, the 190 Don Mills - STC Express comes pretty close to breaking even on weekdays. It has a lower cost per rider ($2.07) than the 504/508 streetcar ($2.38) or the 512 St. Clair ($2.12). Some bus routes have extremely low costs per passenger.

https://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership_2012.jsp

And to an extent, that's my point - we should actually get a staff report together, go through a bunch of different measures the TTC can take, and analyze the resulting increase/decrease in costs.

 

[muller877]

How do you know they haven't studied this?

Anyway, TTC collective agreement with the ATU has a no contracting out clause. Until that's eliminated, this whole argument is pointless.

The contract stipulates that they cannot lay off any personnel.

The contract states that they can contract out work....but without layoffs (i.e. replacing those that retire).

If you doubt...go to the union website and read the settlement agreement.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

By not opposing the task force, Byford can't be labelled obstructionist, and is essentially handing ownership of the cuts to Tory. You want to get rid of the discounted Metropass program? Fine. Mr. Mayor. Here are several thousand emails/phone calls from outraged constituents who will be making very sure their councillor knows exactly how they're feeling. Tory becomes the face of the cuts, not Byford.

And if I was Byford, I would remind Council that when they pushed for essential service status they should realize - as suggested by staff - that arbitration rarely works in the payer's favour:

It is not uncommon for an interest arbitrator to pick bits and pieces of each party’s submission to fashion the collective agreement with the aim being to replicate what the parties would have arrived at through free collective bargaining. In addition, experience in Ontario has shown that arbitrators attach little weight to the issue of an employer's ability to pay as it is assumed that firefighters' employers always have the ability to find the necessary funding by increasing their revenues through taxes.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2011/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-34283.pdf (p. 5) - from
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2011.EX1.8

AoD

 

[smallspy]

We already went through this exercise! Giambrone did it. The costs of running buses are higher. It doesn't matter how you attempt to run the bus service it's a money loser. It's not even close. Like for fuck sake it was less than 10 years ago this was literally proposed, studied at great expense, and found to be financial lunacy. Like there were zero situations where it wouldn't be a massive money sink. Why is this total stupidity even being discussed here?

Indeed.

The vast, vast, vast majority of the cost of running a subway is maintenance and upkeep. The actual day-to-day costs - power, staffing - is a very small proportion of operating the line.

Compare this to a bus, where something like 80% of the cost of keeping it on the road is the operator.

If you want to close the Sheppard line, that maintenance and upkeep cost isn't going to go away - unless you just want it to rot away and never be used again. And even then, that raises a whole new potential set of questions - is it possible to lock up the tunnels and prevent people from getting inside, for instance.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Once they get four-car Rocket trains on Line 4 (Sheppard), then they'll probably experiment with one-man trains on Line 4 first. Then comes ATO (automatic train operation), and the lone employee will walk the train as a guard or security or fare inspector. With Presto, they could replace the station booth with a station master watching over two or three stations.

 

[drum118]

Once they get four-car Rocket trains on Line 4 (Sheppard), then they'll probably experiment with one-man trains on Line 4 first. Then comes ATO (automatic train operation), and the lone employee will walk the train as a guard or security or fare inspector. With Presto, they could replace the station booth with a station master watching over two or three stations.

I stand to be corrected, but one person train is coming to line 4 this fall. Or is that early 2017?? The plan calls for one driver doing a step back at each end.

Going with a station master once Presto in place is a cost saving, but none of these crew cutting is going to do much for the bottom line as the system expand.

 

[nrb]

The contract stipulates that they cannot lay off any personnel.

The contract states that they can contract out work....but without layoffs (i.e. replacing those that retire).

If you doubt...go to the union website and read the settlement agreement.

Nope, wrong again.

 

[smallspy]

I stand to be corrected, but one person train is coming to line 4 this fall. Or is that early 2017?? The plan calls for one driver doing a step back at each end.

It was originally scheduled to start with the September board, but the Union has kyboshed that. Stay tuned...

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Jonny5]

One item from a batch of artifacts discovered stuck in the back of a drawer at my parent's house last weekend.

 

[mrgrieves]

I ride the subway each morning from Downsview to Union during the rush hour. The train always stops for a few minutes before St. Clair West station to allow a short-turning train to butt in front and head southbound.

However, I noticed the last week or so the trains are not stopping before St. Clair West (ie. there is no short-turning trains). Is this just an August slow-down in ridership thing, or maybe something more long-term?

Apologies if this has already been discussed.