steveintoronto
Superstar
Whether you didn't mean to write this or not, the record shows you did:
Did you mean that they should be separated?
|
|
|
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Right, so again you are making an excellent point. Cars should be kept out of the way of streetcars.
micheal_can
Senior Member
I did mean they should be separated. They should not be in mixed traffic. Spadina is a great example to what I mean.
steveintoronto
Superstar
OK, I think we'll get general agreement on that point, albeit ironically, streetcars predated gasoline vehicles on the roads, by many decades.
Amare
Senior Member
It doesnt even matter if they are separated from mixed traffic because the TTC and Toronto Transportation Services will still find a way to cripple streetcar service to the point where they still operate as if they were in mixed traffic (see 510 Spadina and 512 St.Clair for more details).
micheal_can
Senior Member
Please explain. I thought those routes run better than Queen or King.
DSC
Superstar
The routes that run in separated ROWs DO generally perform better but they still have to cross 'regular streets' where traffic signals do not always favour streetcars and the TTC is very poor at actually managing headways. If you want details look at Steve Munro's site as he has done many detailed analyses of streetcar (and some bus) routes - they show that the lack of route management is really a huge problem.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Single occupant motor vehicles still go first making their left turns, while the streetcars have to wait. Because of underfunding, the TTC doesn't have the money needed to improve the track switches so that streetcars don't have to stop at each and every switch.
micheal_can
Senior Member
But, they do perform better than the King or Queen routes, right? That is my point. Having them in their own ROW makes them better. Yes, the TTC needs to do more, but just having them in their own ROW is a great start.
Amare
Senior Member
You're right both the King and Queen routes would theoretically perform better in their own ROW's, the improvements would be very insignificant. In other words, the costs of making all those improvements wouldn't be worth it in the end and money would be better spent elsewhere.
If I were to put a number on the actual improvements that would be made with an ROW in place, service would be improved only by about 10-15%.
micheal_can
Senior Member
What would happen if they also had better signalling?
steveintoronto
Superstar
They do. But the *projects* could have been managed vastly better.
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4126.shtml
I think you'll find that with the latest completions, times are improved beyond those even.
That's because applying a percentile basis is disingenuous. Much of the entire route wouldn't be separated, so the figure you're applying should be expressed to the stretch that is separated, and there, with green-signalling, greatly improved times will show.
Last edited:
micheal_can
Senior Member
That said, much did go wrong with the St. Clair project, only some of which can be explained by the unexpected injunction that halted construction at the start. The project was over budget and several months overdue, and business suffered along the route. Multiple city departments, including Toronto Hydro, the city roads department and the TTC itself were called upon to work together on this project, and didn’t. As a result, portions of St. Clair Avenue were ripped up multiple times as different work crews proceeded at their own pace on their own portions of the project. Then there were the embarrassing construction mistakes which occurred that furthered delays, including misplaced and misspelled shelter signs.[...]
Sounds like every other project. Sadly, there is no real consequences to the tender if they go over budget or over time.
A study taken late in 2011, comparing traffic and ridership levels along the route, suggested that the final outcome of the St. Clair project should be hailed as a success, rather than the disaster its critics had claimed. The average daily ridership on the line had increased from 28,500 in 2005 (before construction started) to 32,400 in 2011. The average morning rush hour round trip was eight minutes shorter in 2011 than 2005. On Saturday mornings, the average round trip had been shortened by fourteen minutes. Thanks in part to the increase in ridership, the TTC had actually increased frequencies along the line by anywhere from 7% to 45%. On average, the St. Clair streetcar is scheduled to operate at frequencies of 2 minutes, 55 seconds. For most of the route, vehicular congestion had also decreased, by as much as 40% in certain areas at certain times of the day, and accidents were down.
So, to paraphrase:
Ridership went up by ~4000
ride was 8 minutes faster.
In other words, a highly successful project.
Sounds like every other project. Sadly, there is no real consequences to the tender if they go over budget or over time.
A study taken late in 2011, comparing traffic and ridership levels along the route, suggested that the final outcome of the St. Clair project should be hailed as a success, rather than the disaster its critics had claimed. The average daily ridership on the line had increased from 28,500 in 2005 (before construction started) to 32,400 in 2011. The average morning rush hour round trip was eight minutes shorter in 2011 than 2005. On Saturday mornings, the average round trip had been shortened by fourteen minutes. Thanks in part to the increase in ridership, the TTC had actually increased frequencies along the line by anywhere from 7% to 45%. On average, the St. Clair streetcar is scheduled to operate at frequencies of 2 minutes, 55 seconds. For most of the route, vehicular congestion had also decreased, by as much as 40% in certain areas at certain times of the day, and accidents were down.
So, to paraphrase:
Ridership went up by ~4000
ride was 8 minutes faster.
In other words, a highly successful project.
Steve X
Senior Member
That's not how exactly how to do ridership comparison. Systematically, the entire TTC grew 10.7% while the 512 grew 13.7%. The additional increase would be only 3% or ~900 more riders. This doesn't take in account of all the development that is occurring on St Clair. Did the St Clair ROW contribute to the growth is questionable too. Many neighbourhood just outside the core are seeing lots of new development too.
(477,357,000-431,220,000)/431,220,000 = 10.7% (from TTC open data)
(32400-28500)/28500 = 13.7%
In terms of ridership, it doesn't sound like a highly successful project if you ask me. It's just a more reliable service to the current users. Ridership would have grown 10% anyways with this project or there's a major problem with this route.
cplchanb
Senior Member
But wasnt that the whole point of the ROW? To bring more RELIABLE and FASTER service? Ridership growth as you mentioned wouldve been inevitable. IMO they did accomplish their main goal as I mentioned earlier. Ridership increases are just
a bonus