[Andy T]

The Scarborough RT runs daily with no visual signaling sytem other thn waht the driver see in cab even in manual mode.

I would assume that the ATC/CBTC system being used would be similar to what is used in London. London’s CBTC has 3 different modes: Full auto, coded manual, and restricted manual. Under coded manual, the driver drives the train while the train provides speed limits and alerts the driver when to accelerate and decelerate. I would assume ATC will have similar features which will allow drivers to drive if needed. If any problems pops up in which the signalling system fails, the train would fallback into restricted manual which limits the train to operate at a restricted speed until it is rectified.

 

[smallspy]

Anything is possible, it just a matter of safety and laws. If they weren’t a concern, then can a train run without any signalling at all?

There are rules for that kind of thing - they're generally called "line of sight operation". And generally they are fine when operating in open areas where the operators can see for some distance, with wide headways or with "lower-performance" equipment. Think about our current streetcar system.

When you start running in confined areas or at tight headways and with "higher-performance" equipment, you're going to want to have some sort of positive enforcement of the rules - that's where a signalling system comes in.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Toronto Subway has had a signalling system since it opened, but based on anecdotes I’ve heard from the time, I get the impression that the signaling rules weren’t properly enforced until the 1990s Russell Hill accident.

I’ve read about how you’d regularly see trains pulling into a platform, while the train ahead of it was still leaving the platform. My friend’s father was a subway operator at the time, and he told me that drivers would regularly disregard speed limit rules, and drive as fast as they wanted (which was apparently really bad for the reliability of the H-Series trains).

 

[smallspy]

The Toronto Subway has had a signalling system since it opened, but based on anecdotes I’ve heard from the time, I get the impression that the signaling rules weren’t properly enforced until the 1990s Russell Hill accident.

I’ve read about how you’d regularly see trains pulling into a platform, while the train ahead of it was still leaving the platform. My friend’s father was a subway operator at the time, and he told me that drivers would regularly disregard speed limit rules, and drive as fast as they wanted (which was apparently really bad for the reliability of the H-Series trains).

The signalling system enforces the rules automatically - it's (supposed to be) designed in such a way to prevent unsafe situations from occuring. And back in the "good old" days, the rules that the system enforced weren't nearly as stringent.

And then Russell Hill happened.

Since then, they've modified the signal system to provide more positive - and structured - enforcement. Some features, such as grade time (where a signal has to count down a pre-set time before it clears), have been enhanced and improved. Others, such as station timing (where a signal will allow a train to bypass it even if red after a pre-set time has elapsed) have been removed. Manual call-ons have been largely eliminated.

For the record, one of the things that changed after Russell Hill that had nothing at all to do with the accident was the ending of high-rate operation on the B-D. That was because David Gunn looked at the mechanical records and found that the traction motors and gearboxes were failing at a considerably higher rate than when they were running in low-rate.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Kitsune]

Another ttc fail ? No notices anywhere about where the 501 is turning around due to Queen being closed during the marathon between Woodbine and Balsam in the beaches. I'm assuming coxwell but an official notice would be nice.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Like 1, from Dupont to Yorkdale is now operating under ATO. Break out the champaign

https://twitter.com/bradttc/status/922223142621282304

 

[Steve X]

The signalling system enforces the rules automatically - it's (supposed to be) designed in such a way to prevent unsafe situations from occuring. And back in the "good old" days, the rules that the system enforced weren't nearly as stringent.

And then Russell Hill happened.

Since then, they've modified the signal system to provide more positive - and structured - enforcement. Some features, such as grade time (where a signal has to count down a pre-set time before it clears), have been enhanced and improved. Others, such as station timing (where a signal will allow a train to bypass it even if red after a pre-set time has elapsed) have been removed. Manual call-ons have been largely eliminated.

For the record, one of the things that changed after Russell Hill that had nothing at all to do with the accident was the ending of high-rate operation on the B-D. That was because David Gunn looked at the mechanical records and found that the traction motors and gearboxes were failing at a considerably higher rate than when they were running in low-rate.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

TTC followed suit with NYC and Chicago when it opened. Some red signal originally meant stop and proceed slowly if safe to do so. Trains could slowly creep up to the next train ahead provided it goes slow enough. This allowed trains to proceed into the station even through the next train is stopped just after the platform. Now trains are stopped three blocks before the next train. More trains are stuck in tunnels. ATO could fix this problem.

 

[Megaton327]

TTC followed suit with NYC and Chicago when it opened. Some red signal originally meant stop and proceed slowly if safe to do so. Trains could slowly creep up to the next train ahead provided it goes slow enough. This allowed trains to proceed into the station even through the next train is stopped just after the platform. Now trains are stopped three blocks before the next train. More trains are stuck in tunnels. ATO could fix this problem.

It's so frustrating when you can see (moreso in the T1's) the completely empty platform with the train ahead well into the tunnel after the station, but your train stays stopped for as long as a couple of minutes instead of entering the station, preventing you from getting off. I've missed connections and been late for engagements because of this occurrence.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Like 1, from Dupont to Yorkdale is now operating under ATO. Break out the champaign

https://twitter.com/bradttc/status/922223142621282304

I rather break out the champagne. Champaign is defined as "open level countryside".

 

[smallspy]

TTC followed suit with NYC and Chicago when it opened. Some red signal originally meant stop and proceed slowly if safe to do so. Trains could slowly creep up to the next train ahead provided it goes slow enough. This allowed trains to proceed into the station even through the next train is stopped just after the platform. Now trains are stopped three blocks before the next train. More trains are stuck in tunnels. ATO could fix this problem.

New York: Yes. Chicago: No.

Chicago's signal system is largely line-of-sight with signals and physical safety devices only at interlockings and special locations. It was really designed for the lower-performance early EL and interurban equipment using it at the turn of the last century, and really hasn't been updated other than the installation of more modern systems in the subways.

Toronto's old signal system is kind of a weird amalgam of largely New York with bits of London sprinkled in for good measure.

Also, in both New York and Toronto, a Red signal means stop, and nothing else. Other lights could be added to this to indicate a more permissive indication, in the situation of a call-on or station timing, which is what you're thinking about.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Another ttc fail ? No notices anywhere about where the 501 is turning around due to Queen being closed during the marathon between Woodbine and Balsam in the beaches. I'm assuming coxwell but an official notice would be nice.

why do they need to put out a notice when it's all over the local news that the marathon is on this weekend?

 

[DSC]

why do they need to put out a notice when it's all over the local news that the marathon is on this weekend?

Because the route closures are not always clear BUT, even when they DO put up notices or have diversions they do not always follow them. Yesterday afternoon the eastbound 504 was till turning back at Spadina at 4pm, even though the street was open and the westbound streetcars WEWRE operating. There WERE notices on the 121 route but by 4.45 it was still not passing Union Station even though notices said diversion ended at 2pm.

 

[ShonTron]

Because the route closures are not always clear BUT, even when they DO put up notices or have diversions they do not always follow them. Yesterday afternoon the eastbound 504 was till turning back at Spadina at 4pm, even though the street was open and the westbound streetcars WEWRE operating. There WERE notices on the 121 route but by 4.45 it was still not passing Union Station even though notices said diversion ended at 2pm.

I don't want to sound like I want to get rid of marathons or other street races, but I wish there was a route that could be used that didn't affect every east-west bus and streetcar through downtown Toronto, including the 300 Bloor-Danforth.

 

[amnesiajune]

I don't want to sound like I want to get rid of marathons or other street races, but I wish there was a route that could be used that didn't affect every east-west bus and streetcar through downtown Toronto, including the 300 Bloor-Danforth.

It's sorta hard to do that when you have to come up with a 42 kilometer route that isn't just dozens of trips around a small loop. The TTC could open the subway a bit earlier to make up for it, but I think the marathon wasn't until well after 8 am.

Anyways, you live in Toronto. If you don't like big city things getting in your way - film festivals, marathons, Pride parades, cultural street festivals, whatever it may be - you shouldn't live in a big city.

 

[ShonTron]

It's sorta hard to do that when you have to come up with a 42 kilometer route that isn't just dozens of trips around a small loop. The TTC could open the subway a bit earlier to make up for it, but I think the marathon wasn't until well after 8 am.

Anyways, you live in Toronto. If you don't like big city things getting in your way - film festivals, marathons, Pride parades, cultural street festivals, whatever it may be - you shouldn't live in a big city.

Sigh.

I live in a big city. Maybe I want to take transit to get to those places.