[smallspy]

There are 2 major issues I see:

1. The 2+2 seats which face each other are way to close to each other, which means that essentially people who are under something like 5'5" are the only people who would be able to sit in those seats if more than 2 of those seats are occupied. For anyone over that height, those seats are essentially useless unless they are all unoccupied.

2.There are serious passenger flow issues when these streetcars are full due to these exact 2+2 seats. People who are trying to access the fare machines or even get off the streetcars have serious issues reaching the doors.

And because of the physical nature of the design of the LFLRVs, neither of those two items can be fixed.

The only way that it could be improved upon is to go to a completely different design of car. And even then, whatever design that because will have its own set of drawbacks and limitations.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Amare]

And because of the physical nature of the design of the LFLRVs, neither of those two items can be fixed.

Agreed they cant be fixed, but they could have been mitigated to an extent.

For example, they could have gone with a staggered 2+2 seating arrangement (ie: not facing each other) which could have avoided problem #1. I'll admit issue #2 would be difficult to get around, unless they went with a higher floor car which could have allowed for potential perimeter seating around the bogies.

From my point of view, the TTC just went with the worst possible option when it came to the seating layout.

 

[Voltz]

There are some Bombardier LRV's that have inwards facing bench seats over the wheels, such as the model that is used in Belgium, as well as single front and rearwards facing seats over the wheels. There may be some differences in the Toronto model, but I am sceptical that there was no other option but the seating arrangement that we got, more likely that they did not think to consider other options.

https://flic.kr/p/7vVJ4x

The Brussels model is narrower, so there was no option to fit in 2+2 seating

 

[Megaton327]

You'd tap on your last bus well before the 2 hour mark, so I don't see an issue here.

You're making assumptions about how a fare-inspector (if all buses go POP) will treat a currently invalid fare.

This is exactly how it works today with the essentially-2-hour-timed transfers on Presto - if you tap when boarding a vehicle and it accepts your fare payment, your fare is paid as long as you're on that vehicle (until it reaches its terminus and turns around), fare inspectors' Presto-checking devices will show a valid fare if your card was tapped on the current vehicle within the last 2 hours. Do you have a good reason for suggesting it would change under the new system?

 

[Leo_Chan]

This is exactly how it works today with the essentially-2-hour-timed transfers on Presto - if you tap when boarding a vehicle and it accepts your fare payment, your fare is paid as long as you're on that vehicle (until it reaches its terminus and turns around), fare inspectors' Presto-checking devices will show a valid fare if your card was tapped on the current vehicle within the last 2 hours. Do you have a good reason for suggesting it would change under the new system?

So you effectively have a 3hr 58min transfers with Presto? Tap on to start 1hr 59 min timer, then tap onto the second vehicle with 1min left, then reach your destination by 3hr 59min time of th trip, assuming there is a route that takes 1hr 58min to reach the desired stop. Or does the tap on at the second vehicle just say 1min left, and if you get inspected 2min later, you get fined?

 

[11th]

So you effectively have a 3hr 58min transfers with Presto? Tap on to start 1hr 59 min timer, then tap onto the second vehicle with 1min left, then reach your destination by 3hr 59min time of th trip, assuming there is a route that takes 1hr 58min to reach the desired stop. Or does the tap on at the second vehicle just say 1min left, and if you get inspected 2min later, you get fined?

Consider how the system faces regular delays, this is how I think they should implement the time based transfer rule: you can change vehicles and do stop-overs unlimited number of times in the 2hrs after the first tap. Your transfer/trip at 1hr59min will be valid as long as you are on that bus/streetcar run/subway system.

 

[Megaton327]

So you effectively have a 3hr 58min transfers with Presto? Tap on to start 1hr 59 min timer, then tap onto the second vehicle with 1min left, then reach your destination by 3hr 59min time of th trip, assuming there is a route that takes 1hr 58min to reach the desired stop. Or does the tap on at the second vehicle just say 1min left, and if you get inspected 2min later, you get fined?

To the best of my knowledge, it is, in the hypothetical case you provided, a 3h59min transfer.

Tapping on a 2nd vehicle with 1min left and getting fined wouldn't make sense. For one, it in no way violates TTC By-Law No. 1, aside from just being obviously absurd.

Funnily enough I think this is technically how Viva works which is utterly insane. I guess they expect riders to start a stopwatch when they tap, and get off before it expires, or pull the emergency door release when at 1h59min30sec if not at a stop. And there's no way to manually extend your tap by paying a second fare at the machine.

But as far as I know, the TTC's fare policy is in line with their inspectors' devices, in that as long as you paid a valid fare when boarding your current vehicle, that fare is valid for the duration of your trip on that vehicle.

 

[Sandpit]

Funnily enough I think this is technically how Viva works which is utterly insane. I guess they expect riders to start a stopwatch when they tap, and get off before it expires, or pull the emergency door release when at 1h59min30sec if not at a stop. And there's no way to manually extend your tap by paying a second fare at the machine.

And that's why the fare inspectors have discretion. Still, there's a chance that he/she (but mostly he) is in a bad mood that day. I'm not sure if their devices will show the last time you tapped your card if the 2h has expired, so you might also have some explaining to do.

 

[11th]

And that's why the fare inspectors have discretion. Still, there's a chance that he/she (but mostly he) is in a bad mood that day. I'm not sure if their devices will show the last time you tapped your card if the 2h has expired, so you might also have some explaining to do.

As long as you are on the vehicle, and had tapped when you boarded you are okay. The inspectors just need to verify whether the card was tapped on that vehicle, on that specific run.

 

[smallspy]

Agreed they cant be fixed, but they could have been mitigated to an extent.

For example, they could have gone with a staggered 2+2 seating arrangement (ie: not facing each other) which could have avoided problem #1. I'll admit issue #2 would be difficult to get around, unless they went with a higher floor car which could have allowed for potential perimeter seating around the bogies.

From my point of view, the TTC just went with the worst possible option when it came to the seating layout.

I don't see how staggering the seats would change it. You still have to account for the wheels under the floor - that's why the seats are located where they are (and why those two 4-seaters are raised above the nominal floor level).

There are some Bombardier LRV's that have inwards facing bench seats over the wheels, such as the model that is used in Belgium, as well as single front and rearwards facing seats over the wheels. There may be some differences in the Toronto model, but I am sceptical that there was no other option but the seating arrangement that we got, more likely that they did not think to consider other options.

https://flic.kr/p/7vVJ4x

The Brussels model is narrower, so there was no option to fit in 2+2 seating

They could have done inwards-facing seats, but that would have required them to be placed on a podium anyways, and thus would have forced the same narrow isle. And the TTC has found that generally people prefer to be sitting forwards (or backwards) rather than sideways in any case.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Sandpit]

As long as you are on the vehicle, and had tapped when you boarded you are okay. The inspectors just need to verify whether the card was tapped on that vehicle, on that specific run.

There are no Presto readers on board Viva vehicles.

 

[Leo_Chan]

There are no Presto readers on board Viva vehicles.

You tap on at “Viva Stations”, but it’s the same thing as it’s POP anyways.

 

[W. K. Lis]

With tapping on and tapping off, we can have different timed transfers and charges. Waiting for transfers (between taping off vehicle A and taping on vehicle B) would not count to the time.

We can have 30-minute, 60-minute, 90-minute, 120-minute and 150-minute transfers and charges. Failure to tap off would result in the full 150-minute charge. Should the vehicle itself be the cause of delays, GPS notifications could adjust the time to compensate. (If the vehicle has not moved for 5 minutes, for example, 5 minutes can be adjusted.) After 150-minutes, a new fare would start and be charged on a tap on.

 

[DSC]

With tapping on and tapping off, we can have different timed transfers and charges. Waiting for transfers (between taping off vehicle A and taping on vehicle B) would not count to the time.

We can have 30-minute, 60-minute, 90-minute, 120-minute and 150-minute transfers and charges. Failure to tap off would result in the full 150-minute charge. Should the vehicle itself be the cause of delays, GPS notifications could adjust the time to compensate. (If the vehicle has not moved for 5 minutes, for example, 5 minutes can be adjusted.) After 150-minutes, a new fare would start and be charged on a tap on.

One of the problems with the current system that has been raised here ad nauseum is its complexity and the costs and difficulties of adjusting it to deal with changes in routes etc. The great advantage of a simple time ticket is it is very simple to understand and program. Why make it so complicated?

 

[drum118]

With tapping on and tapping off, we can have different timed transfers and charges. Waiting for transfers (between taping off vehicle A and taping on vehicle B) would not count to the time.

We can have 30-minute, 60-minute, 90-minute, 120-minute and 150-minute transfers and charges. Failure to tap off would result in the full 150-minute charge. Should the vehicle itself be the cause of delays, GPS notifications could adjust the time to compensate. (If the vehicle has not moved for 5 minutes, for example, 5 minutes can be adjusted.) After 150-minutes, a new fare would start and be charged on a tap on.

Your are asking for something impossible for Metrolinx back-end system for Presto. The cost to write and develop a program to do what you want would take years and cost an arm and leg.

You are asking for too many things that defeat the move to a time transfer that is needed years ago for TTC. Delays is a big issues and no way around it. Set 2 hours and let TTC/Metrolinx deal with time lost.