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Leo_Chan said:
I’m pretty sure the hypothetical article will make fun of people not knowing how to stand on platforms and how they are educating the education-less.
Click to expand...

There are extant examples, like the "Baby On Board" signs in the back windows of some cars. The only people who 'get it' are the ones already being sensible.

How can you explain logic to people who stand in the doors of subway cars, streetcars and buses, and stand on platforms where those vehicles unload passengers oblivious of the need to stand aside?

Orientals tend to queue by societal norm. Canadians? Not so much. They used to do, that's now gone. Decals on the floor aren't going to make much difference, if any.

Maybe personal shocking features built into their handheld devices might help? The options for dealing with zombies are limited.
 
steveintoronto said:
Orientals tend to queue by societal norm. Canadians? Not so much. They used to do, that's now gone. Decals on the floor aren't going to make much difference, if any.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that. From my experience, queuing is a Western thing. The Eastern mentality is storming the bus stop en masse like Soviet tanks advancing against broken German panzer groups. But of course, Western norms will break down in extreme conditions like Line 1 crowding.
 
I stated "Orientals" not "Easterners", and indeed, even the Orientals can be savage, but not the more developed societies:
Queuing in Japan is an art form. Everyone says ‘the Japanese just love queuing,’ but it is more than that. There’s a beauty in the order. Picture the trains at rush hour: well-mannered travellers wait in perfectly formed lines for the train carriage to open. And when the doors part, the queuers wait for the last passenger to disembark before they file in, until they are pressed against the glass (still in order, of course). No matter what time it is, there are very few line jumpers, complainers or people breaking rank. If you want to line up like a pro, here are the essentials.[...]
Click to expand...
How to queue in line like a Tokyoite - Time Out

I can tell you that Torontonians used to be far more courteous on the TTC decades ago, make that half a century ago. Compared to London, it's pretty banal. Londoners still queue in many cases, even with the multicultural aspect and overcrowding. Even New Yorkers still tend to queue. It might just be a Toronto thing in Canada, and some do attempt at forming queues on bus, streetcar and train platforms on the TTC, most don't. I've made it a point to observe this for a couple of months now, bothering to wait in a stub line even barely being able to stand from some healing health issues, only to have mobs push me out of the way to get on the bus or train. This is the norm now, not the exception in Toronto.

That being said, I've been very impressed with the number of persons offering up their seats, respect and gallantry is still alive, but those are individuals, not the mob. Also GO bus passengers tend to queue, GO train passengers don't. There's psychology at work there.

We'll see how subway patrons respond to 'guidance'. Many don't even look where they're treading, so I'll be very surprised if it has a notable effect. We'll see. In all fairness, the TTC has become a mob-show, but that's the story of Toronto. The terrible driving should be clue on that.
Misty Harris
Published: January 16, 2014 - 2:44 PM
Updated: January 16, 2014 - 3:10 PM

If the reputational cost of bad manners isn’t enough to encourage decorum, how about having to pay an extra $8 for a coffee?
A café in France recently made headlines for issuing a price scale based on patron etiquette: “Hello, one coffee, please” was listed at the usual price, while the more blunt “One coffee” was advertised at a premium. Though the sign was designed to make a point, people’s enthusiastic reaction to it is sparking renewed debate about the decline of civility.
Even here in Canada, where politeness is a flywheel of national identity, surveys consistently suggest we’re becoming less courteous, more self-involved, and increasingly prone to boorish behaviour – whether in the workplace, in public spaces or on social media. The question is, can anything be done about it?
“The reality is that things have to escalate to a point of pretty significant severity before a court is going to address it,” said Garry J. Wise, a Toronto-based lawyer. “It’s very, very difficult to enforce (civility) in the absence of an ongoing pattern.”
Internationally, however, that’s not the case.

Germany’s so-called “insult law” not only criminalizes hate speech but also broad conduct showing disrespect for another person – including flipping someone off in traffic. In France, the state-owned railway tasked a team of “polite police” with cracking down on rude passengers after noting a 25 per cent increase in traveller complaints. And in Singapore, a person can be fined for everything from spitting on the sidewalk to not flushing a public toilet.

The lines are greyer in Canada, said Wise, with the onus largely falling on individuals and organizations to impose decorum.

“The willingness of an employer to jump in will vary from workplace to workplace,” said Wise, pointing to issues of harassment, sexism and racial slurs. “Sometimes, they’ll do what the law requires, but not necessarily for the purpose of solving the problem; it’s for the purpose of papering their file.”

Karen Cleveland, a Canadian manners maven, said the Canuck approach tends to be one of passive aggression as opposed to legal intervention. Take, for example, the time she forgot to silence her cellphone at the symphony and was met by “well-deserved glaring looks from other patrons.”

“We shame each other in a very Canadian, quiet, judgy way,” said Cleveland, who contends that etiquette in this country is headed down a scary path.

“Internationally, we enjoy a reputation as being a very mild-mannered people. Some days, that feels like nothing further from the truth – especially if you’ve had the pleasure of cramming yourself into a Toronto Transit Commission subway during rush hour.”
[...]
Click to expand...
https://o.canada.com/life/rudeness

[...]
Welcome to Toronto the Rude

BY JAN WONG | MAY 4, 2011

We swear at each other from cars, bark at each other on the TTC and yell into our cellphones. How a supposedly livable city suddenly turned boorish.
[...]
In Canada’s biggest, most congested city, the rudeness epidemic is most obvious on our roads. Recently, while I was driving, a man in a car behind me honked his horn, and a nanosecond later the driver in front of me gave me the finger. Everyone is stressed out simply going to and from work; our average commuting time of 80 minutes a day—the equivalent of more than 40 work days a year—is among the worst in the world. No wonder drivers cut each other off or nearly mow down pedestrians. And no wonder pedestrians retaliate by crossing intersections at an aggravatingly slow, I’m-entitled-to-walk-like-I’m-93-years-old pace when a car is trying to make a turn. It makes you want to run them over.
[...]
Neil Bissoondath, the Trinidadian-born Canadian novelist, agrees. “When we get our signals crossed, it comes across as a kind of racism or rejection of another ethnic group,” he says. When he first arrived in Toronto, he remembers being surprised, for instance, to see queues. “In Trinidad, nobody lined up for anything. When a bus came, everyone rushed forward, but it wasn’t considered impolite.”
[...]
Click to expand...
https://torontolife.com/city/welcome-to-toronto-the-rude/

Needless to say, things have deteriorated even further since this was written...
 
Last edited:
It may be helpful to point out that an almost exact rendition of these floor markings have been used in Montréal for several years, to great effect.

Dan
 
From New York Times


By Emma G. Fitzsimmons
  • April 19, 2019


    Andy Byford, the transit executive who was hired to rescue New York City’s foundering subway, has had growing tensions with Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo over management of the system, and several of his colleagues said they feared he might quit.
    The two men did not speak between January and April, even as Mr. Byford was seeking to move forward on a sweeping $40 billion plan to overhaul the subway in the next decade.
    If Mr. Byford were to step down, it would be a major blow to efforts to improve the system, which has been plagued by antiquated equipment, cost overruns and rising complaints from riders about chronic mismanagement. In recent years, New York’s subways have had one of the worst on-time rates of any major rapid transit system in the world.
    Mr. Byford and Mr. Cuomo have disagreed over the plan to fix the L train, new technology to upgrade subway signals, the high cost of Mr. Byford’s “Fast Forward” overhaul plan and Mr. Cuomo’s regular criticism of the authority.
More at: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
 
^ Mmm...speaking of Montreal:
Feeling squished? STM wants users to spread out more on the Metro
Jan 11, 2019 3:26 PM ET

Riding Montreal's Metro system during rush hour can often lead to uncomfortably close encounters with strangers.

And it's not just because there aren't enough trains, according to the STM.

The transit authority says people aren't doing a good job of spreading out in Metro cars. Now, it's looking for ways to encourage people to use the available space more efficiently.

Despite having more elbow room on the Metro's new Azur cars — cars which allow riders to walk the full length of the train while it is in motion — crowds are congregating near the doors, STM board chair Philippe Schnobb told Radio-Canada's Gravel le matin.
[...]
Encouraging people to spread out more may include simple, short-term solutions such as putting arrows on the train's interior walls, guiding riders to move past the doors, he said.
[...]
The STM is also considering installing doors on the platforms of busy stations to help prevent personal items from falling on the tracks, causing further congestion in the public transit network.
[...]
But congestion has been a regular problem in recent months, especially at Berri-UQAM.
[...]
Click to expand...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/stm-share-space-metro-1.4975009

The Montreal STM Orange Line Is So Overcrowded It's Becoming Dangerous

Why is the Montreal subway so crowded this year : montreal - Reddit

[...]What we do have in some stations are stickers on the floor which indicate where the doors will open. These are meant to encourage riders to stand away from the doors to let people out of the cars before entering (with mixed results!). As a result, they don’t include a door or car number for wayfinding. The other major issue with these stickers is that our new Azur trains have 3 doors per car rather than 4, so as long as we have a mix of new and old trains in use, floor stickers will likely be confusing to users of those lines.[...]
Click to expand...
http://nicolas.kruchten.com/content/2016/08/platform-wayfinding/

Note quote above:
"But congestion has been a regular problem in recent months, especially at Berri-UQAM."
[...]
The project is in place at three platforms, each with a different design.

Berri UQAM station - toward Angrignon

Berri UQAM station - toward Angrignon
At Berri-UQAM, the design has three arrows. A large one shows the path people exiting should take. Two smaller ones show how people should wait – off to the side, not crossing this yellow line until everyone is out.
[...]
Click to expand...
https://blog.fagstein.com/2008/11/25/stm-pilot-project-metro-doors/

Author above goes into detail explaining the futility of such approaches:
[...]
The idea makes sense in theory – effective human traffic control would make the trains go faster. And doing it as a pilot project makes even more sense, so that even if it’s the stupidest idea they’ve ever done it’s not a big deal.

I like the idea of marking the location of the doors (metro-savvy people judge their locations based on memory or by the wear pattern on the floor), but this system doesn’t rub me the right way for a few reasons:

First of all, it’s patronizing and condescending. Like those instructions in washrooms that tell you how to wash your hands, do we really need to be told how to stand in front of a train?

stmtest-peeling.jpg


The second reason is more practical. Due to a mixture of uneven and dirty floors, plus the fact that people step on them, the stickers are already peeling away. On the Angrignon platform, more than half are already gone.

Finally, as Blork points out, this could easily have the opposite effect. By marking where the doors are, it encourages people to crowd around them. These people are more interested in getting to a seat before everyone else than they are being polite or letting everyone off the train. They want to squeeze by before everyone gets off so they can nab their plastic throne.

Of course, that’s just a guess. We’ll see once the pilot project is finished how well it did. In the meantime, the STM is asking people who have seen these things to fill out a survey online, asking which one they prefer (and whether they have any impact).
Tags: industrial design, metro, pilot projects, STM
14 comments

MABNovember 25, 2008 at 5:51 pm
The symbols on the Angrignon platform are exactly the same as those at Gare St-Lazare on the Ligne 3 platform. I recall noticing that they didn’t seem to work at all in Paris and I’d be surprised to see that they were effective here.
[...]
JillNovember 25, 2008 at 8:50 pm
I was at Berri on the weekend, and people were waiting for the train right in the middle of the stickers, like it was an invitation to block the doors.
[...]
anonymous cowardNovember 26, 2008 at 5:07 pm
This reminds me of a New York subway moment I had back in 2000, trying to get off at some station, I politely tap the shoulder of the man in front of me and whimper “excuse me”, implying that I need to get out. He half turns at me, highly annoyed, in a heavy Puerto Rican New York accent says, “people tryin to get on da train wazz wrong witch you daaaaaaaymn ?!?!?” Being nonconfrontational (especially in New York) I waited till he let everyone in, and got out after him (almost didnt make it).

Ok so it’s New York, but it does raise an interesting dilemma, who really has the right of way ? Allowing people to get off first implies that the driver is willing to wait for everyone waiting to get on, which I don’t think is always the case, not in Montreal anyway. It would make more sense to have designated entry/exit doors like on busses…of course I’ld rather they concentrate on resolving the whole-train-line-must-stop-everytime-a-couple-of-drops-of-condensation-lands-on-the-rail issue first.
[...]
MarcDecember 15, 2008 at 10:04 pm
When I grew up in Montreal and took the metro every day, this was never a problem. People just knew to stand clear of the doors and wait till those exiting were clear.

This was 25 years ago however :-(
Click to expand...
https://blog.fagstein.com/2008/11/25/stm-pilot-project-metro-doors/

Add ten years for the date of the post, and that makes 35 years ago. And I concur.

Pardon my cynicism, but my experience has been the same, as I duly noted in my prior post in this string.
 
From the 'Blork' blog linked in the prior pane:
NOVEMBER 24, 2008AUTHORED HAWCO 17 COMMENTSON PILOT PROJECT FAIL
PILOT PROJECT FAIL
The STM is running a pilot project at the Berri-UQAM Metro station. On the platform for the Côte Vertu-bound train (orange line), they’ve put some markers on the floor to indicate where the doors for the Metro cars will be when the train comes into the station. The idea is let to you know where notto stand, to enable people to get off the car before the waiting throng pushes its way on.
Here’s what it looks like: on the left is a door location indicator. On the right is a sign explaining (with jaunty typefaces) what it’s all about:
STM pilot project Berri-UQAM

A close up of the sign:
STM pilot project Berri-UQAM

Translation: Avoid the confusion. The yellow markings on the ground indicate the location of the doors. Thanks for leaving this space free in order to facilitate the departure of passengers. Your opinion is important. To respond to the survey: www.stm.info. Pilot Project.
Nice idea. There’s only one problem: This is Montreal! A city notorious for its self-absorbed, mindless public transit users. A place where people regularly push onto the cars without waiting for those inside to get out first. Where guys wearing huge backpacks take one step into a half-empty car and come to a full stop, preventing anyone else from boarding. A place where people sprint across a crowded platform, knocking people over, so they won’t miss that rush-hour train – even though another one will be along in (literally) two minutes. (Dave spells it out rather nicely, here.)
This project has FAIL written all over it. Let’s be clear on something: in Montreal, to point out where the Metro doors will be and then expect people not to stand there is like writing NO MOTHS on the bulb that lights up your patio. FAIL.
Click to expand...
http://www.blork.org/blorkblog/2008/11/24/pilot-project-fail/

"(it) is like writing NO MOTHS on the bulb that lights up your patio" or as I stated yesterday: "Baby On Board" signs in the back window of your car.

Good luck with your experiment, TTC. No harm trying, and some actually seem to believe it will make a difference. Now getting back to those signs on King Street for drivers...and the signs on buses, streetcars and subways to "Don't block doors" "move to the back" and "remove back-packs". They're working splendidly. Just not in Toronto...
 
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