News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 9.7K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 41K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 5.5K     0 

Not a lawyer but my interpretation of a 'without prejudice advance offer' strikes me similar to a deposit in a standard real estate offer. It is supposed to 'show good faith' while negotiations continue. The 'without prejudice' part simply means the claimant, in accepting the money (I don't know if it has to be held in trust), waives no rights, arguments or confidentiality.

This site has been of interest to the TTC/Metrolinx much longer than the last couple of years though..........

This makes me wonder:

What was the lag between CP deciding to ditch it and any move by the public sector to claim it?

Could it have been purchased with CANPA?

Did CP have to go through the abandonment procedure they would for a through-track for the yard lands?

How did the private interest become involved?

Did they have any reasonable prospect of rezoning?
 
Last edited:
This site has been of interest to the TTC/Metrolinx much longer than the last couple of years though..........

It really hasn't, though.

GO/Metrolinx has never held much interest in the property, as it is in a bit of an awkward location for them to access.

And TTC's interest only really reached the highest levels of that agency only in the past 3 or so years. There had been ideas at lower levels of planning and operations for a bit longer - probably the past 10 and a bit years or so, as that would start to be about the point at which CP started making noises of getting rid of the property - but it took them that long to convince the higher-ups.

Dan
 
It really hasn't, though.

GO/Metrolinx has never held much interest in the property, as it is in a bit of an awkward location for them to access.

And TTC's interest only really reached the highest levels of that agency only in the past 3 or so years. There had been ideas at lower levels of planning and operations for a bit longer - probably the past 10 and a bit years or so, as that would start to be about the point at which CP started making noises of getting rid of the property - but it took them that long to convince the higher-ups.

Dan

I personally read reports laying it in as fundamental the to the TTC R-L project (with Line 2 trains shifting to Obico and Greenwood being the R-L yard) back in 2014; and I'd heard the idea percolating long before that.

I can't speak to whether it reached Gary Webster's Desk; but I know it reached Andy Byford's by 2015 (maybe earlier)
 
"Do your buses get stuck in traffic? It's amazing what a difference it makes to life the city when public transit is treated as a first-class alternative to driving, as it is in Amsterdam, and many other cities in the Netherlands.

The Downs-Thomson Paradox on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs%E...

The description of the Downs-Thomson paradox is simplified in this video, but in general, this principal applies. Technically it is possible to meet demand for car traffic, but in practice, this is unaffordable, simply due to the amount of infrastructure required per person carried by car: there is no city that has done this in a sustainable way (as StrongTowns.org is keen to point out). More information can be found at StrongTowns.org, in articles such as this one: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2... and this one: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2...

The Dutch traffic per hour graph was taken from this report: 3e Publieksrapportage Rijkswegennet 2017 https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/document...

The graph of daily traffic in a car-dependant city is based off of the graph here: https://www.wbez.org/shows/curious-ci... Comparing the traffic volumes between countries is difficult, as they use different methods of measuring traffic, so don't take this comparison too literally; it's meant to be illustrative.

Footage of New York provided by YouTuber Walk NYC: Walk NYC: 10/3/2019 New 14th St Traffic Regulation "Busway" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2WW...

Footage of San Fransico provided by YouTuber UpDownAcross38: First day of Car-Free Market Street. 2/10/2020 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ty77... "


 
I personally read reports laying it in as fundamental the to the TTC R-L project (with Line 2 trains shifting to Obico and Greenwood being the R-L yard) back in 2014; and I'd heard the idea percolating long before that.

I can't speak to whether it reached Gary Webster's Desk; but I know it reached Andy Byford's by 2015 (maybe earlier)

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I think that you are using a bit of projection or historical revisionism (and I don't mean those in a negative connotation) - those early reports didn't call specifically for Obico, but rather for "a plan for a new yard at the west end of the Bloor-Danforth Line." to help account for the increased yarding requirements.

And as I understand it, at that time, the intention was not to use the Obico Yard property, as its ownership/use was still in question, but rather the TTC's own long-dormant plans to build a yard on the lands that they already own to the north and west of the Kipling Station. All of those parking lots that are now being turned into a bus terminal? Well, they had been purchased for use as a storage yard when (!) the line got extended further west.

Obviously the Metrolinx bus terminal has put the kybosh to that plan, and likely had a lot to do with the plan to buy up the Obico Yard property - along with the TTC's a number of the TTC's own internal reports suggesting that they will need a new bus garage in the west end, a new heavy-maintenance facility to replace the Duncan and Harvey Shops located in the Hillcrest Complex, and the combining of storage and light-maintenance services between the regular and wheel-trans bus fleets. The Obico Yard property is one of the few left in the City that would allow the TTC to realize all of those goals and with just one set of property purchases to do it.

Dan
 
I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I think that you are using a bit of projection or historical revisionism (and I don't mean those in a negative connotation) - those early reports didn't call specifically for Obico, but rather for "a plan for a new yard at the west end of the Bloor-Danforth Line." to help account for the increased yarding requirements.

And as I understand it, at that time, the intention was not to use the Obico Yard property, as its ownership/use was still in question, but rather the TTC's own long-dormant plans to build a yard on the lands that they already own to the north and west of the Kipling Station. All of those parking lots that are now being turned into a bus terminal? Well, they had been purchased for use as a storage yard when (!) the line got extended further west.

Obviously the Metrolinx bus terminal has put the kybosh to that plan, and likely had a lot to do with the plan to buy up the Obico Yard property - along with the TTC's a number of the TTC's own internal reports suggesting that they will need a new bus garage in the west end, a new heavy-maintenance facility to replace the Duncan and Harvey Shops located in the Hillcrest Complex, and the combining of storage and light-maintenance services between the regular and wheel-trans bus fleets. The Obico Yard property is one of the few left in the City that would allow the TTC to realize all of those goals and with just one set of property purchases to do it.

Dan

That's fair; certainly in terms of going back several years; I see Steve Munro mentioned the idea on his site in 2015.


As he (and you) note, the idea of west end storage had long pre-existed Obico being in play.

Though its clear it was going to be in play by early 2015.
 
Question, @smallspy

I've previously heard that Lambton/West Toronto was closing and land sold for development, only to see it hold on and sometimes see active use again...........

I also understand that Harrison ordered Yard C (72 tracks) at Agincourt closed.

Do you know what the current plans are for either facility?
 
Question, @smallspy

I've previously heard that Lambton/West Toronto was closing and land sold for development, only to see it hold on and sometimes see active use again...........

I also understand that Harrison ordered Yard C (72 tracks) at Agincourt closed.

Do you know what the current plans are for either facility?

That's the funny things about plans on the railroad: they frequently don't go as planned....

The joint Lambton/West Toronto facility has been planned to be closed for as long as Agincourt has been open. Every time a new plan gets drawn up, something happens and it all gets blown up to be tried again in some slightly different manner.

Paul, feel free to correct me on this as you actually live in the area and know the operations there better than I, but I seem to recall that technically West Toronto has been closed as an operating facility at least twice. And both times, the closure lasted less than 6 months before it was realized that the railroad needed the facility to keep running in order to keep their own operations fluid.

As for Yard C, a lot of the yard has been torn up, yes. And more importantly, the hump has been razed. But they've also put back in a bunch of the tracks at the north end that they'd already torn out because they realized that they needed the capacity.

And ultimately, this is the take-away from the whole thing: a lot of these "modern" plans that keep cropping up - and I'm going to use "modern" as a term to ascribe to any of the type of plan created by the followers of EHH and his ilk - is that they count on the railroad operating at 90% efficiency and perfection 100% of the time. And the fact of the matter is that the industry, for all of its attempts to do so is that it simply is not capable of operating at those kinds of levels for sustained periods. Yes, some of those reasons are external to the railways such as weather, but a lot of them are internal and can be solely chalked up to lack of investment, or in extreme cases shareholder interference. EHH's much-bandied Precision Scheduled Railroading was dependent on motive power having 100% availability and 95% reliability, on crews always being on time and ready to work, on storage requirements throughout the network being minimal and forcused on specific locations, and with car storage limited to weeks at a time rather than months, and perhaps most importantly, on the receiving railroads always being ready to take the cars that they are owed. If any of those points fails to meet that expectation, the whole system breaks down because its operating under the expectation that trains almost never stop, and that cars don't need sit and wait for their next load. Fluidity became the buzzword, and therefore measure, by which to calculate the whole thing. And what's been shown time and time again is that's simply not a reasonable expectation, and that's why the railways that have been successful in the long-term after the implementation of PSR (as opposed to the short-term success following the implementation of PSR - which to date, is CN, CPR, CSX and NS, in order) have kept a lot of the same plans and programs, but dialed back the expectations ever so slightly AND spent a more on things like maintenance that end up being the linchpin to the whole scheme.

Dan
 
For those of you/us who like seeing TTC "relics".

Expected Start Date: August 2020 Expected End Date: October 2020 .

The City of Toronto is planning to resurface Church Street from Gloucester Street to Park Road. Our inspection of the road shows that it needs repaving and sections of damaged curb and sidewalk need to be replaced to bring them to a state of good repair. The project will also include the removal of old streetcar tracks under the road surface, south of Bloor Street.
 
For those of you/us who like seeing TTC "relics".

Expected Start Date: August 2020 Expected End Date: October 2020 .

The City of Toronto is planning to resurface Church Street from Gloucester Street to Park Road. Our inspection of the road shows that it needs repaving and sections of damaged curb and sidewalk need to be replaced to bring them to a state of good repair. The project will also include the removal of old streetcar tracks under the road surface, south of Bloor Street.

Better if they could REPLACE the old streetcar tracks. Good for streetcar detours.
 

Back
Top