[81-717]

Just curious here, as I’ve noticed this a few times in the last week;

Is something going on with the ATC on the Yonge Line? I’ve noticed the train stops to be off from the designated entrance markers on the platform edge. Off at least one time by almost six feet. I’ve never noticed it being off at all since ATC was put into service.

That'd be a disaster with PSDs.

Toronto paid the price

With a 10-year sentence, no less, before finally reaching a plea deal to have the sentence reduced to 3—4 years.

Do you understand why the H6s were replaced when they were? It was only done because they were maintenance nightmares.

Ever stopped to think that they had way more subway cars than they needed work cars, and that's why not every class was represented in the work car fleet?

No, of course not, you'll just wave it away as another conspiracy against the Hawkers, and by extension, you as an individual, because you're apparently the only one who never got something that they wanted out of life.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? That the simplest explanation is usually the most reasonable? So which is the simpler explanation? That multiple unrelated factors (early replacement only for H6s, not ALRVs & NG HEVs, "more subway cars than needed work cars", and "no room for preservation") ALL just so happened to work against all the Hawkers (H5/6s especially), while having no effect whatsoever on any other subway cars? Or that all of it was part of a single planned calculated attack against the Hawkers (especially H5/6s)?

The youngest TRs, in 2035, would only be 18! You would gain NOTHING from replacing them that soon.

Speak for yourself (since you're obviously so pro-T1/TR, despite claiming neither one is your favorite, and both of which are overrated). I personally would certainly gain A LOT MORE than nothing... Your life may have "been unchanged if 9424 was scrapped", but my life would've improved fantastically if all T1/TRs were Thanos-snapped out of existence overnight.

Replacing functional rolling stock well before its best before date is not "sensible", it's idiotic.

It's the LEAST idiotic thing they could do compared to the series of idiotic decisions that led to all the Hawkers being nixed (many of them well before reaching their expiry date).

2000-2014 was a blissful period in the world history.

Coincidentally (and anecdotally), we moved to Canada in 2000 and the last Hawkers retired in 2014.

 

[T3G]

Occam's razor in no way, shape, or form suggests that a coordinated conspiracy against one subway car type is more likely than shit happening. What possible motivation would the TTC have for having a hate boner for the Hawkers specifically? They're a business, they don't care about the vehicle type except in so far as concerning themselves with whether the vehicle is economical to operate, or whether it's past its lifespan or not.

I think you need to seriously revisit your understanding of Occam's razor. There's some serious holes in it. And why do you keep dredging up old discussions.

 

[drum118]

TTC resumes bus service on Queen St. E and College St. and Bay St. on March 28 ahead of schedule

March 27, 2026

Starting tomorrow, Sat. Mar. 28, at 5 a.m., the TTC will resume bus service on Queen Street East between Broadview and Davies and through the College St. and Bay St. intersection, ahead of schedule.

In February, the TTC adjusted service to accommodate the renewal of aging streetcar tracks and overhead upgrades.

Westbound 301B Queen buses, 503 Kingston Rd buses and 504 King buses will resume operating on Queen St. E., west of Broadview Ave. and 19 Bay buses and 506 Carlton replacement buses will resume operating through the College St. and Bay St. intersection.

506B/306B Carlton replacement buses continue to replace 506/306 Carlton streetcar service between McCaul St. and Parliament St., operating between Spadina Station and Broadview Ave. and Gerrard St E.

These service changes will be in effect starting Sat. Mar. 28 but won’t appear in most TTC and third-party trip-planning applications until outstanding construction and commissioning are complete, and regular service resumes.

The TTC will be testing and commissioning the newly installed streetcar tracks over the next few weeks, and streetcar service on the 501/301 Queen, 504/304 King, and 506/306 Carlton streetcars is scheduled to resume regular routing on Sun. May 3.

Full details of the service adjustments are available at https://www.ttc.ca/service-advisories.

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

Occam's razor in no way, shape, or form suggests that a coordinated conspiracy against one subway car type is more likely than shit happening. What possible motivation would the TTC have for having a hate boner for the Hawkers specifically? They're a business, they don't care about the vehicle type except in so far as concerning themselves with whether the vehicle is economical to operate, or whether it's past its lifespan or not.

I think you need to seriously revisit your understanding of Occam's razor. There's some serious holes in it. And why do you keep dredging up old discussions.

Wouldn’t the beancounters at MTA and SEPTA happened to be railfans? Just for having the R46s, R68/As and the Kawasaki streetcars and the B-IV cars?

 

[McGillicuddy]

LOL. It’s not exactly failing upward to go from Toronto to Ottawa, but wtf are they thinking?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/rick-leary-transit-ottawa-toronto-boston-9.7144348

It's possible that nobody else with the necessary qualifications wanted the job?

OC Transpo has been in an absolute state for the last decade, and by all indications the mayor and council want someone who will preside over a period of managed decline. Whoever takes the job will also be under an unusual amount of public scrutiny, as the Confederation Line continues to cast a lemon-shaped shadow over the agency. You'll be taking flack over decisions made by your predecessor's predecessor, the agency is so stretched for resources that you won't have the flexibility necessary to make many useful changes, and if you want anything which costs money, forget it.

I'm just saying: this isn't a job which says "promising mid-career transit manager on the rise". This is a job which says "Rick Leary".

 

[ShonTron]

It's possible that nobody else with the necessary qualifications wanted the job?

OC Transpo has been in an absolute state for the last decade, and by all indications the mayor and council want someone who will preside over a period of managed decline. Whoever takes the job will also be under an unusual amount of public scrutiny, as the Confederation Line continues to cast a lemon-shaped shadow over the agency. You'll be taking flack over decisions made by your predecessor's predecessor, the agency is so stretched for resources that you won't have the flexibility necessary to make many useful changes, and if you want anything which costs money, forget it.

I'm just saying: this isn't a job which says "promising mid-career transit manager on the rise". This is a job which says "Rick Leary".

He's the perfect guy for Mark Sutcliffe.

 

[81-717]

Occam's razor in no way, shape, or form suggests that a coordinated conspiracy against one subway car type is more likely than shit happening.

If it was just shit happening, you'd expect it to happen to all vehicle (namely, all subway) models equally, but it sure doesn't. It hasn't happened (yet) to any other TTC subways, and sure hasn't happened to any other North American subways (not in Montreal, Vancouver, NYC, Washington, Chicago, etc), contrary to your claim that North America barely has any historical vehicles whatsoever.

What possible motivation would the TTC have for having a hate boner for the Hawkers specifically?

Because they had objectively the most unique design features to ever exist? And because the TTC (and everything else) has a strong preference for blandness & soullessness over uniqueness & variety?

And why do you keep dredging up old discussions.

Because I often end up having more to say/add after the fact that didn't come to mind right away (plus the discussion isn't that old per se, less than a month).

 

[turbanplanner]

LOL. It’s not exactly failing upward to go from Toronto to Ottawa, but wtf are they thinking?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/rick-leary-transit-ottawa-toronto-boston-9.7144348

Why does it seem like every public agency hires the most incompetent person they can find?

Like what is better about him than literally anybody on this forum? He failed multiple times.

 

[T3G]

If it was just shit happening, you'd expect it to happen to all vehicle (namely, all subway) models equally, but it sure doesn't. It hasn't happened (yet) to any other TTC subways, and sure hasn't happened to any other North American subways (not in Montreal, Vancouver, NYC, Washington, Chicago, etc), contrary to your claim that North America barely has any historical vehicles whatsoever.

1) Why should events befall every single vehicle equally? That doesn't make any sense and goes against the very nature of chance. Transit agencies don't exist in a bubble, and the things that affect the rest of the world affect them too. Sometimes, the economy is great and that enables them to replace a vehicle on time; sometimes, a financial crisis occurs and they have to keep them going longer than planned. Different politicians in different eras place different levels of priority on transit funding. Sometimes, a vehicle is operationally reliable; sometimes, it sucks. This isn't evidence of a conspiracy, it's evidence of RANDOM CHANCE, the force that guides all occurrences in life. The pre-war PCC streetcars were built from 1938-1945, and the vast, vast majority of them were withdrawn by 1966 because of the opening of the BD subway, meaning that most of them didn't make it to age 30. Meanwhile, the last units retired in 1995 were from a series built in 1951, meaning they made it to 44 years of age. And contrast that with the CLRVs which made it to 40. Does this mean there was a conspiracy against the pre-war PCCs? Or that CHANCE intervened? Is the fact that the GM New looks were forced to last to nearly 30 years of age due to cutbacks in operational funding while the Orion VIs were pensioned off at age 8 evidence of a conspiracy against the Orion VIs? Or is it the fact that it was too god damned difficult to convert the CNG operated Orion VIs to diesel operation and they weren't very good vehicles in the first place?

2) Other subways in those cities are saved by OTHER people or transit agencies. What do they have to do with the TTC's decision not to? Are you saying all the subway operators are conspiring to make sure none of the TTC's get saved, even though that makes no sense at all?

3) The presence of a small group of cities on the continent where some historical vehicles exist doesn't disprove my "claim". It's a very big continent with lots of cities on it. Feel free to go on the CPTDB Wiki next time and look up any bus model of your choice and compare the number of transit agencies which operated a given model, and then see how many historical units of that model were actually saved. If your takeaway from reading those charts is that we have lots of historical vehicles in North America, you need to retake grade 1 level arithmetic.

Because they had objectively the most unique design features to ever exist? And because the TTC (and everything else) has a strong preference for blandness & soullessness over uniqueness & variety?

1) I don't think you understand what the word "objectively" means.

2) The TTC is a business, of course they have a preference for blandness and standardization; it saves them money. And yet, your conspiracy theory that it's associated with vehicle retirement decisions has some holes in it. You might possibly remember that the H4s and H5s made it to ages 37 and 36 respectively, which is a respectable age by any metric. Hell, if your conspiracy theory were remotely valid, then how come they didn't buy enough TRs to retire the T1s together with the Hawkers? Having one subway car type for the whole system is more standard than having two. Or what about in bus land? How come they didn't even try to buy enough Novas to pension of all the Orion VIIs in one fell swoop and make the fleet 100% Nova overnight?

TL;DR: There is no conspiracy, and frankly I'm not sure why you bother to keep reopening the discussion when you ignore any points anyone makes to the contrary. Is the purpose of joining a forum to exchange ideas (this means reading and digesting and acknowledging counter-arguments), or simply to have everyone confirm that you're right?

 

[81-717]

Why should events befall every single vehicle equally? That doesn't make any sense and goes against the very nature of chance

Sure, not ALL vehicles, but an evenly distributed sample, so roughly half of all vehicles. The Hawkers were, for the purpose of this argument, just 1 car type, nowhere near half of all car types.

Does this mean there was a conspiracy against the pre-war PCCs?

Not unless every single one of them were scrapped, and unless the post-war PCCs were, for all intents & purposes, the same vehicle type.

Is the fact that the GM New looks were forced to last to nearly 30 years of age

Forced?

while the Orion VIs were pensioned off at age 8 evidence of a conspiracy against the Orion VIs?

Yes, that's exactly what it means. The VI is also my favorite bus model because of its objectively unique design, specifically the placement of the back door, the interior layout (the ceiling), and exterior (roof). Ofc this most unique model was also the shortest blip in fleet history. At least it's survived by some non-TTC VIs like 534, which have all of the same design features except the L10G propulsion.

Other subways in those cities are saved by OTHER people or transit agencies. What do they have to do with the TTC's decision not to? Are you saying all the subway operators are conspiring to make sure none of the TTC's get saved, even though that makes no sense at all?

Yes, I'm generalizing here from "TTC" to the collective "transit world" and "HCRR" to "museum/preservation industry" as a whole.

Feel free to go on the CPTDB Wiki next time and look up any bus model of your choice

Notice how I specifically focused on subway models? No matter which NA system I looked at, I couldn't find any that would fall into that category.

I don't think you understand what the word "objectively" means.

I understand it quite well, and I stand by what I said, and don't take it back. Show me any other car type that has the exterior of an H1/4, or the interior of an H5/6 (ok, the R46 is similar to an H6, and a few 81-717s in Moscow do have yellow doors & red floors like H5s, but those similarities are superficial at best), or sounds like an H5/6 (the (C/A)LRVs do not, aside from the buzz).

which is a respectable age by any metric

Not by NYC/London/Montreal metric though, which the pro-T1 people always harp on.

Hell, if your conspiracy theory were remotely valid, then how come they didn't buy enough TRs to retire the T1s together with the Hawkers?

Because that'd be the opposite of my theory, and I would welcome it?? Why would they do that when they have a love boner for the T1s & TRs anyway.

Having one subway car type for the whole system is more standard than having two

Having 1 type for 1 line is standard enough too, even if the lines are interconnected.