[Bordercollie]

Could have been a small, but not insignificant, gradual leak that went unnoticed for a while as the train moved about the line.

You wouldn't notice 300L?

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

Question, I heard TTC after 1998 was banned from buying high floor buses especially with wheelchair lifts. I wonder why though, even TTC missed out on getting the NFI D60HF Artics which would’ve been better hence the D60HFs were found to be performed better on NYC streets.

 

[Bordercollie]

Question, I heard TTC after 1998 was banned from buying high floor buses especially with wheelchair lifts. I wonder why though, even TTC missed out on getting the NFI D60HF Artics which would’ve been better hence the D60HFs were found to be performed better on NYC streets.

I think there was a pause on buying articulated buses due to them not being as reliable. Remember the Orion III's were a problem due to corrosion and had to be retired early.

The LFS artic was their first step to get arrive again.

Also they split the D40LF order with 50 RTS', I think that was due to delivery schedule?

They should have gotten the LFS instead of RTS. They were quite problematic and because of the design of the wheel chair lift it couldn't carry as many people.

 

[Richard White]

Question, I heard TTC after 1998 was banned from buying high floor buses especially with wheelchair lifts. I wonder why though, even TTC missed out on getting the NFI D60HF Artics which would’ve been better hence the D60HFs were found to be performed better on NYC streets.

Having wheelchair lift on a high floor bus was misleading.

Just because you can get on a high floor bus with a wheelchair doesn't mean you can get off it.

If the lift fails after a wheelchair user gets in it is problematic.

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

I think there was a pause on buying articulated buses due to them not being as reliable. Remember the Orion III's were a problem due to corrosion and had to be retired early.

The LFS artic was their first step to get arrive again.

Also they split the D40LF order with 50 RTS', I think that was due to delivery schedule?

They should have gotten the LFS instead of RTS. They were quite problematic and because of the design of the wheel chair lift it couldn't carry as many people.

Back in early 1997. TTC had a D60LF demo on their property and used on tests. And then later had plans to buy 155 artics in 1999-2001. Per the UCRS February 1997 pdf online

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

Having wheelchair lift on a high floor bus was misleading.

Just because you can get on a high floor bus with a wheelchair doesn't mean you can get off it.

If the lift fails after a wheelchair user gets in it is problematic.

In the U.S. high floor buses got many more years because wheelchair lifts were compliant and mandatory on all bus orders from 1990 onwards

 

[T3G]

Having wheelchair lift on a high floor bus was misleading.

Just because you can get on a high floor bus with a wheelchair doesn't mean you can get off it.

If the lift fails after a wheelchair user gets in it is problematic.

Not at all true. Wheelchair lifts can be manually pumped. It's not very pleasant work, but it's definitely not entrapment. If it were, how would GO be allowed to still be receiving high floor coaches with lifts in the year 2026?

Obviously, low floors are better for accessibility, but try to remember that the wheelchair lift came about in an era where the low floor bus was in its infancy. A high floor vehicle with a lift is superior to one without.

because of the design of the wheel chair lift it couldn't carry as many people.

???

How exactly did the design of the wheelchair lift affect passenger capacity???

 

[McGillicuddy]

Not at all true. Wheelchair lifts can be manually pumped. It's not very pleasant work, but it's definitely not entrapment. If it were, how would GO be allowed to still be receiving high floor coaches with lifts in the year 2026?

Might be a matter of necessity. There aren't a lot of low-floor motorcoaches on the market.

 

[T3G]

Might be a matter of necessity. There aren't a lot of low-floor motorcoaches on the market.

Well, there are the double deckers we had. Granted, apparently those weren't very good so that's why they went back to the MCIs, but if the DDs were unreliable and wheelchair lifts were that unreliable that loading a passenger onto a bus with one was essentially entrapment, then surely they could waive the requirement for CanCon and get any number of European DDs, from makers such as Volvo, Neoplan, or formerly Van Hool. After all, accessibility should surely be more important than protectionism.

 

[JSF-1]

Also they split the D40LF order with 50 RTS', I think that was due to delivery schedule?

They should have gotten the LFS instead of RTS. They were quite problematic and because of the design of the wheel chair lift it couldn't carry as many people.

They also got the Orion VI's at the time which were the last hurrah of CNG buses in the city and riddled with problems. At that time the TTC was testing out the New Flyer D40LF, the Orion VI, and they also had a demonstrator Nova LFS40. I know the TTC liked the D40LF's and would have preferred to buy more of them but they were compelled to also purchase Orion VI's because they were made in Mississauga which in the long-term was a poor financial decision. The Orion VI's barley lasted 10 years before being retired due to mechanical complications caused be there 100% low-floor design, the cost savings from CNG never really materializing, and other teething issues (I recall their ramp, and kneel functions being finicky). They weren't even really considered for diesel conversion like the older Orion V CNG buses. By comparison the D40LF's stuck around to like 2018 or something; it's just a shame they were confined to the city's west end because I really liked them but they disappeared from Scarborough when the Orion VII's started turning up.

Nova LFS40 demonstrator bus

NewFlyer D40LF

Orion VI

 

[Bordercollie]

Not at all true. Wheelchair lifts can be manually pumped. It's not very pleasant work, but it's definitely not entrapment. If it were, how would GO be allowed to still be receiving high floor coaches with lifts in the year 2026?

Obviously, low floors are better for accessibility, but try to remember that the wheelchair lift came about in an era where the low floor bus was in its infancy. A high floor vehicle with a lift is superior to one without.


???

How exactly did the design of the wheelchair lift affect passenger capacity???

The fact that you could not stand on the stepwells while the bus was in motion, and the awkward rear layout.

 

[81-717]

The fact that you could not stand on the stepwells while the bus was in motion, and the awkward rear layout.

Passengers aren't supposed to stand infront of the white line (which the front door steps definitely are) while in motion anyway.

They also got the Orion VI's at the time which were the last hurrah of CNG buses in the city and riddled with problems. At that time the TTC was testing out the New Flyer D40LF, the Orion VI, and they also had a demonstrator Nova LFS40. I know the TTC liked the D40LF's and would have preferred to buy more of them but they were compelled to also purchase Orion VI's because they were made in Mississauga which in the long-term was a poor financial decision. The Orion VI's barley lasted 10 years before being retired due to mechanical complications caused be there 100% low-floor design, the cost savings from CNG never really materializing, and other teething issues (I recall their ramp, and kneel functions being finicky). They weren't even really considered for diesel conversion like the older Orion V CNG buses. By comparison the D40LF's stuck around to like 2018 or something; it's just a shame they were confined to the city's west end because I really liked them but they disappeared from Scarborough when the Orion VII's started turning up.

I was never a fan of the kneel function because it just doesn't look right when a bus isn't standing straight & horizontal, and I'm not aware of it being a thing on European accessible buses either. Personally, if buses are to have a kneel function, I would've preferred it being a side-kneeling one, especially on the Orion VI or any other bus with a far back door. It's a shame they didn't/couldn't convert the VIs to diesel & have then last until around 2016 as well.

 

[Bordercollie]

Passengers aren't supposed to stand infront of the white line (which the front door steps definitely are) while in motion anyway.


I was never a fan of the kneel function because it just doesn't look right when a bus isn't standing straight & horizontal, and I'm not aware of it being a thing on European accessible buses either. Personally, if buses are to have a kneel function, I would've preferred it being a side-kneeling one, especially on the Orion VI or any other bus with a far back door. It's a shame they didn't/couldn't convert the VIs to diesel & have then last until around 2016 as well.

The RTS was the only model to have a rest wheel chair lift, which prevented people from standing on the rear step wells. That's at least two people during crush loads.

 

[Steve X]

The RTS was the only model to have a rest wheel chair lift, which prevented people from standing on the rear step wells. That's at least two people during crush loads.

You can't stand there on any high floor buses/streetcars either with treadle as that activates the rear doors.

 

[Bordercollie]

You can't stand there on any high floor buses/streetcars either with treadle as that activates the rear doors.

That's not correct, Orion V used push bars to open the door so you could have 4 people in the step wells. It's not pleasant but during snow storm and you wait 40min for a bus you make due what whatever.

Also even if the step triggers the door, people lifted themselves up until the door closes and then continued to stand in the step. Even on streetcars. On ALRV's that could be 8 extra people.