[W. K. Lis]

The KINGSTON ROAD tripper (before it became the 503) used to run from the Bingham loop (Victoria Park) to the Roncesvalles carhouse, until the 1970's. It was cut back, likely due to the shortage of streetcars. See link for the history.

Currently, the western terminal of the 503 is at Spadina, due to construction. Too bad they couldn't extended it back to Roncesvalles, after all the construction at the Roncesvalles carhouse is over.

From link.

 

[dowlingm]

Would swapping the 505 and 506 western terminals help with layover issues when both routes finally get Fs, since the 505 is basically stuck with the same platforms as the 504 at Broadview, and presumably Dundas West also. Is there a better option, in the short term?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Would swapping the 505 and 506 western terminals help with layover issues when both routes finally get Fs, since the 505 is basically stuck with the same platforms as the 504 at Broadview, and presumably Dundas West also. Is there a better option, in the short term?

You would still end up with them sharing Dundas west station. There isn't any other routes that they can do it with other than 504.

 

[reaperexpress]

Would swapping the 505 and 506 western terminals help with layover issues when both routes finally get Fs, since the 505 is basically stuck with the same platforms as the 504 at Broadview, and presumably Dundas West also. Is there a better option, in the short term?

Swapping the 506 and 505 would probably make things worse at Dundas West given that the 506 is considerably longer than the 505 (more room for things to go wrong). I don't really know what else there is to do other than make sure the platforms at Dundas West and Broadview get extended next time the stations are up for reconstruction.

Fortunately from what I've seen, most of the issues at those stations were caused by the 504, not the less-frequent 505. The last time both routes ran streetcars (January 2018), the 504 was running a CLRV every 3'50 in the AM, whereas the 505 was only every 5'50. A Flexity arriving every 5'50 would be a challenge, but a Flexity arriving every 3'50 is a fisaco.

 

[W. K. Lis]

With the Relief Line in place, the 505 could be rerouted to terminate in the east end at either Gerrard Station or pass Eastern-Broadview Station on the way to the Port Lands.

 

[dowlingm]

With the Relief Line in place, the 505 could be rerouted to terminate in the east end at either Gerrard Station or pass Eastern-Broadview Station on the way to the Port Lands.

what do we do for the decade plus it will take to build the relief line, though.

The Eastern-Broadview option is attractive, but as an split of an existing service rather than a full diversion.

 

[steveintoronto]

Would swapping the 505 and 506 western terminals help with layover issues when both routes finally get Fs, since the 505 is basically stuck with the same platforms as the 504 at Broadview, and presumably Dundas West also. Is there a better option, in the short term?

Contingent on the rush hour movement of traffic on Parkside Dr, the 514 western leg could run along the Queensway west from Roncesvalles to the Humber Loop, and the 80 service running on Parkside beefed up to carry transfers from the RoW underpass/overpass @ Queensway to/from Keele Station. Roncesvalles is a huge impediment to the speed of the 504. Whether Parkside would prove that much faster for the packed crowds riding up/down to/from Dundas West is a good question. I live just north of Roncesvalles, and can't help but notice how packed the 504 is in peak, both directions! Spreading that crush load would help. At least some of the crush would disperse up the Runnymede, Prince Edward and a new '76C' Royal York routes to the subway. (the '76C' southern loop being the Humber Loop)

 

[dowlingm]

Fortunately from what I've seen, most of the issues at those stations were caused by the 504, not the less-frequent 505. The last time both routes ran streetcars (January 2018), the 504 was running a CLRV every 3'50 in the AM, whereas the 505 was only every 5'50. A Flexity arriving every 5'50 would be a challenge, but a Flexity arriving every 3'50 is a fisaco.

Given the development pressure east of Yonge on Dundas at Jarvis and through Regent Park I hope an F every 5’50 is enough (which is just another reason to worry about the need to get on with expanding the F order above 204)

 

[dowlingm]

Contingent on the rush hour movement of traffic on Parkside Dr, the 514 western leg could run along the Queensway west from Roncesvalles to the Humber Loop, and the 80 service running on Parkside beefed up to carry transfers from the RoW underpass/overpass @ Queensway to/from Keele Station. Roncesvalles is a huge impediment to the speed of the 504. Whether Parkside would prove that much faster for the packed crowds riding up/down to/from Dundas West is a good question. I live just north of Roncesvalles, and can't help but notice how packed the 504 is in peak, both directions!

Turning some 504-west cars at Sunnyside might be a better bet than sending them all the way to Humber and back, no?

 

[steveintoronto]

Turning some 504-west cars at Sunnyside might be a better bet than sending them all the way to Humber and back, no?

Then it would mean a transfer at Queen for two stops along the Queensway to offload to the 80 bus at the overpass. There's a huge psychological barrier for many riders to 'too many changes', not to mention having to wait again to continue their journey.

If Roncesvalles wasn't so congested, it would be perfect, but drivers parking (many of them dimwits from my extensive cycling experience up and down there) (I've been in streetcars when they've hit parkers) cause streetcars to crawl through that section. Queensway flies in comparison.

There's the option of short-turning more 501 Queen cars at Sunnyside Barns in lieu of the added 514s.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

The 504A/B change starts tomorrow. The 514 is being removed, not extended, and the 504A will serve Dundas West Station-Distllery, 504B Dufferin Gate-Broadview. No more through service except for 304 King Blue Night.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

My fantasy streetcar route change is the most modest of all: swap the western ends of the 514 and the 504. This is intended to reduce the track capacity issues at Dundas West and Broadview, improve passenger distribution between the 514 and the 504, and improve line management by equalizing headways.

Current King streetcar services
View attachment 120452

Proposed King streetcar services
View attachment 120453

Overnight service would continue to operate from Dundas West to Broadview as it does today.
View attachment 120454

Dundas West / Broadview station capacity
Dundas West and Broadview stations both have capacity issues, with streetcars sometimes backing up down the street as the platforms are occupied. This is because of the recovery time that needs to be included within the schedule to account for variation in the travel time over the long and busy route. Meanwhile, Dufferin and Distillery loops have plenty of spare capacity, with less frequent service on a route which travels a shorter distance. By swapping the branches, the service operating out of Dundas West and Broadview now cover a smaller distance, which means there is less chance of delay and therefore less need for recovery time in those busy stations.

Passenger Distribution
In general, the 504 tends to be crammed through the combined section, while the 514 runs fairly empty. Besides the obvious difference that the 514 uses 30-metre low-floor streetcars while the 504 uses 15-metre CLRVs, this is also due to the fact there are many places on 504 that are not on the 514, but not many places on the 514 that are not also on the 504. Swapping the branches would help equalize the ridership between the 504 and the 514.

Allow for headway management
Currently during peak periods the 514 Cherry operates every 7.5 minutes, while the 504 runs every 4 minutes. This makes headway management pretty much impossible - if you equalized headways on the separate segments, they would be sporadic on the combined section, and if you evened the headways on the combined segment, they would be uneven on the separate segment. Once both routes are running 30-metre streetcars they could run the same headway (every 6 minutes?), allowing the combined segment to also run at an even headway (every 3 minutes?). Headways could then be managed in the combined section without screwing up the headways on the separate sections.

Conclusion
The drawback of this configuration is that it requires more streetcars than the current arrangement given that it provides slightly excessive capacity along the route of the current 514. So it wouldn't make any sense until the streetcar fleet is back up to full numbers. But once the streetcar fleet is restocked, this change could be a worthwhile investment to improve the practical capacity and reliability along the city's busiest streetcar corridor.

Isn't it ironic though that your plan is what is going be in effect. Maybe somebody from TTC Planning views this thread.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Route 514 Cherry to be renamed 504A King and extended to Dundas West Station as of October 7th:

http://ttc.ca/Service_Advisories/504-514_route_change.jsp

This change sounds familiar to me for some reason...

I am now really starting to think they just named it in this stupid way because they didn't want to look like they were actually plagiarizing @reaperexpress

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

I am now really starting to think they just named it in this stupid way because they didn't want to look like they were actually plagiarizing @reaperexpress

Actually, maybe that's why they did it

 

[Admiral Beez]

Visiting San Francisco this week for fleet week air show. And look what rolls past! I'm a kid in 1980s Toronto again.