DSC
Superstar
You have asked this same question for many years; though it may be a good idea, clearly the answer is 'don't count on it happening'.
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- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
You have asked this same question for many years; though it may be a good idea, clearly the answer is 'don't count on it happening'.
muller877
Senior Member
A large delay is the pedestrian signal. Toronto assumes that you crawl across the street and have a long flashing red for this purpose. If they assumed a 2-phase crossing (i.e. pedestrians have to wait at the streetcar stop if they are slow...think of University Ave) the transit priority could increase.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Used to be there were no pedestrian signal. People crossed on the "GREEN" light. Then the pedestrian signal came along, with the "WALK" signal lasting for the length of the "GREEN" light. Then they switched to pictographs, but lasting just as long. Today, the "WALK" lasts much, much, much shorter, the "WAIT" part starts flashing with the countdown. Overall, the pedestrian gets a very short time to cross unlike it used to be, with much less priority and fines should they cross on the flashing "WAIT" signal.
Avenue
Active Member
Has that ever been enforced? First time I'm hearing this.
smallspy
Senior Member
It absolutely does. Every single bus in the network is equipped with equipment to activate it, and a good couple of dozen routes operate through intersections equipped with it.
As well, the system used to have two sets of maximum green signal lengthenings - 16 seconds and 32 seconds. It's possible that everything has been cut back to a maximum of 16 seconds in the intervening years.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Been in the news a lot of times.
See link.
In the 1950's, I've seen streetcars start to enter an intersection just as the traffic light changes to yellow. And the whole streetcar train on the Bloor streetcar line would be in the intersection, but the cross traffic had to wait as the streetcar cleared the intersection.
Of course, the streetcars didn't have to stop at each and every track switch back then.
nfitz
Superstar
If the streetcar is at the stop, no one is turning, as people are boarding. It's for the streetcar to get through the lights; which is why the second it enters the intersection, it goes yellow.
When people complain there is no signal priority, they are referring to lights where there is no stop, that don't preemptively go green, when the streetcar approaches, so the streetcar never hits a red light (if well spaced).
DSC
Superstar
As the TTC seems incapable of actually spacing out vehicles this may explain why priority is seldom actually seen in action!
Avenue
Active Member
Streetcars, being in the centre lane, spend lots of time stuck behind vehicles trying to make left turns or just occupying the intersection otherwise. I think keeping the light green extra 16 seconds is useful for that so that the streetcar can approach it's stop (which are stupidly placed right before intersections), and not useful for much else by itself.
Signaling priority is kind of an oxymoron without dedicated/protected lanes. I was so surprised at the treatment "trams" were given when I first moved to Toronto.
TransitBart
Senior Member
TransitBart
Senior Member
reaperexpress
Senior Member
The priority system has since changed to a more modern one but there are still 2 maximum extension lengths: 16 and 30 seconds. The agreement is that transit can receive up to 30 seconds of extra green if a 'Walk' display is shown at the same time, but if a 'Don't Walk' is displayed only 16 seconds is permitted, to avoid creating confusion for pedestrians. Of course the 'Don't Walk' extensions are a lot more obvious to casual observers, but you can spot a 'Walk' extension when the light begins the 'Flashing Don't Walk' the instant the streetcar/bus crosses the stop line.
You can see the list of ~300 intersections with some form of 'transit priority' using the City's Open Data and searching for 'transit' under 'pre-emption type'. I find that mirasan.ca is a convenient way of navigating that data. Most of the priority intersections are on streetcar routes, but there are also several on major bus routes such as 35 Jane, 36 Finch West, 29 Dufferin, 7 Bathurst etc.
But as robmausser perfectly summarized, 'priority' is a vague concept. In typical engineering practice, it just means anything the signal does that is specifically triggered by a transit vehicle. It doesn't actually mean that transit gets better service than cars. Elsewhere in North America, transit priority can be hilariously weak, for example in Philadelphia buses can only receive up to 6 seconds of green extension and then priority is disabled for 4 minutes at the intersection before the next bus is allowed to receive 'priority'. Given that the signals are coordinated for cars, even with this 'priority', buses probably spend more time at red lights than cars. Other examples include many signals where transit needs a white bar indication to turn, such as Sheppard & Parkway Forest in the video above. Depending on the setup of the intersection, transit vehicles may spend more time waiting for their 'priority' signal than cars spend on average waiting for their green.
In Toronto it is also a constant fight between the TTC and the City to determine the level of priority transit should receive at traffic signals. The City of Toronto's new traffic signal system is able to provide pretty much any type of priority you can think of, but the City doesn't necessarily allow it to do so.
To the contrary, priority is very useful without dedicated lanes because it can be used to clear cars off the tracks in front of the streetcar, such as left-turning cars. See for example northbound Broadview at Danforth, where approaching streetcars can significantly lengthen the left turn arrow as they approach, which helps avoid getting stuck waiting for them.
Red Truncation (i.e. 'changing a red light to a green light quicker') in downtown Toronto is already as aggressive as physically possible. As soon as a streetcar is detected the Flashing Don't Walk (FDW) begins immediately on the perpendicular street if it was in 'Walk' and the minimum Walk had already been served. But from that point it's still a while before the light can actually turn green for the streetcar because you still have to wait through the FDW (typically 10-25 sec), Yellow (3-4 sec) and All-Red (2-3 sec). Violating any of those times would be a major safety issue, and an obvious non-starter.
But there aren't many places where truncation can be used. At most intersections along streetcar routes, the normal green for the side street is equal to the minimum walk (7 sec) plus the FDW, so there's absolutely nothing that can be done to shorten it.
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animatronic
Senior Member
Vancouver just issued an RFP for a streetcar feasibility study:
Summary Details:
The RFP concerns the City's interest in procuring a consultant ("Consultant") to future proof the planning of streets and development within Vancouver so that a modern streetcar system can be constructed in the future. Details of the City's objectives and requirements to which the RFP relates are set out in Part B of the RFP. The City welcomes proposals that are responsive to this RFP ("Proposals") respecting innovative or novel approaches to the City's objectives and requirements.
Lots of details here:
http://bids.vancouver.ca/bidopp/RFP/documents/PS20171493-RFP.pdf
Summary Details:
The RFP concerns the City's interest in procuring a consultant ("Consultant") to future proof the planning of streets and development within Vancouver so that a modern streetcar system can be constructed in the future. Details of the City's objectives and requirements to which the RFP relates are set out in Part B of the RFP. The City welcomes proposals that are responsive to this RFP ("Proposals") respecting innovative or novel approaches to the City's objectives and requirements.
Lots of details here:
http://bids.vancouver.ca/bidopp/RFP/documents/PS20171493-RFP.pdf
Attachments
steveintoronto
Superstar
Arbutus as a transit corridor (again) lives! Interesting...
nfitz
Superstar
That's just what I was thinking. I thought that had died when they selected the Canada Line alignment. And it does meet the existing track along 6th Avenue quite well, and would interchange with the Canada Line at Olympic Village, the proposed Millenium Line extension at Arbutus, the Expo line at Main Street–Science World, and provide excellent transit to the entrance to Granville Island. And that's if they only build Arbutus and use the existing line. If they build the relatively short Phase 1, it goes into Gastown and the main Waterfront transit hub, meeting the Canada and Expo lines, along with the commuter rail and SeaBus.
It's almost a no-brainer. If it's successful, I wonder how feasible it is to extend along the rail track a bit further south from Granville/SW Marine across the existing rail bridge to the Bridgeport Canada line station. How well used is that bridge? How frequently do they need to open it?
Perhaps the short-lived Olympic Line will run again!