W. K. Lis
Superstar
Maybe with OneCity, they'll finally actually do something with the Union Station streetcar loop? So many plans, but nothing happening.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
Isn't this loop the reason why the Waterfront East LRT is so expensive?
drum118
Superstar
Yes, as well moving the trunk line at Yonge St.
If the Fort york line is added, it will become a nightmare operation issue.
Neil
Active Member
I've always hated this plan. More pedestrians at Union can only make things worse. They should continue the streetcar tunnel north under the subway line emerging from a portal between Wellington and King. Continuing the line up Bay and looping around old city hall would get a lot more people closer to where they want to go instead of dumping them in a pit under Union with squealing rail wheels negotiating a tight turn. You would think tunneling under 2 rail lines would be cheaper then tunneling under 16.
That's a pretty interesting idea. It would be kind of neat to see the line actually end at Queen Station, using the old streetcar platform below. Tunnel up Bay, make the turn at Queen, and then have a crossover into Lower Queen. Build a new underground station somewhere around Adelaide too.
Just throwing that out there. I do agree though that having a streetcar line that ran past Union would definitely take some of the pressure off Union.
Jonny5
Senior Member
You need to think this one through more.
It would be an extraordinarily complex job and big expense to regrade the existing line and build a new station at Union low enough to go under the subway, path tunnels, sewers. Then you have an extremely tight curve at Bay all to end at a 60 year old roughed in underground streetcar stop that is probably only 25% as big as it needs to be and in one of the most annoying stations to access downtown. Then, where is the loop going to go to turn our very long new LRVS around?
We already have multiple projects underway to solve pedestrian problems at Union and more coming.
Also people need to stop ever using this ancient unfinished Queen car stop as a justification for any project. It's likely to not be a benefit but an expensive engineering headache for anything built there.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
It would be better if they could extend the underground streetcar up Bay Street to or close to wherever they decide to put the Don Mills Express/Downtown Relief Line stations for transfer purposes. Continue to have a Union Station for transfers from Yonge-University, but having a separate station to serve the Financial District to relieve some of the crowds.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
There was this proposal from a while back, BAY LRT.
The LRT station should have been packaged with the other Union Station projects. Such a transformational process (Train shed, new levels, new subway platfrom) and yet the LRT station is ignored. I mean after multiple years of construction are we going to ramp up construction again just to build an expanded LRT stop...
It was my understanding that the existing plan addressed many of the concerns about the current LRT station. Squeeling wheels??? A larger radius loop would reduce wheel squeel. Accessibility/connectivity issues??? With the new second platform riders will not need to climb a flight of stairs only to go back down a flight on the other side. There will be a direct connection between the two stations. Passenger overcrowding??? The current Union expansion should have taken into consideration the possibility of expanded streetcar services should it not have? Also I think that secondary entrances along Bay St should be built to help disperse crowds.
The LRT station should have been packaged with the other Union Station projects. Such a transformational process (Train shed, new levels, new subway platfrom) and yet the LRT station is ignored. I mean after multiple years of construction are we going to ramp up construction again just to build an expanded LRT stop...
It was my understanding that the existing plan addressed many of the concerns about the current LRT station. Squeeling wheels??? A larger radius loop would reduce wheel squeel. Accessibility/connectivity issues??? With the new second platform riders will not need to climb a flight of stairs only to go back down a flight on the other side. There will be a direct connection between the two stations. Passenger overcrowding??? The current Union expansion should have taken into consideration the possibility of expanded streetcar services should it not have? Also I think that secondary entrances along Bay St should be built to help disperse crowds.
dowlingm
Senior Member
I hate this plan and have done since I first saw the drawings. Hate it hate it hate it. It's going to be a poison pill for Queens Quay East if TTC insist on the loop expansion as a prerequisite (rather than introducing alternative service from downtown to the Ex/Ferry Docks/Island Airport to allow 509/510 to reduce enough to make QQE work).
I'd rip out the existing streetcar tunnel and replace it with an APM like Heathrow T5 (Bombardier Innovia 200 with platform doors; platforms at Union/ACC South/Queens Quay/Ferry Docks with some/most/all trains skipping ACC South/Ferry Dock depending on time of day), and through surface running on Queens Quay west to east.
Failing that I'd order a subfleet of double side double end streetcars, put a crossover in north of Queens Quay and then rip the whole thing out at Union and put 3-4 terminal tracks in there. I'd also institute a frequent bus service from Eireann Quay to York/Richmond/Simcoe along the ROW to reduce taxi demand but also serve the condos and the new commercial buildings south of the rail lands - would also get transit a bit closer to CN Tower/Skydome without getting too disrupted by events at the latter. At present the QQLRT skirts the demand (almost 50% of its catchment is water)
Extending the tunnel up Bay is a non-runner - has to pass the subway and all the sewers etc. already relocated for the 2nd Platform Project, plus the PATH.
I'd rip out the existing streetcar tunnel and replace it with an APM like Heathrow T5 (Bombardier Innovia 200 with platform doors; platforms at Union/ACC South/Queens Quay/Ferry Docks with some/most/all trains skipping ACC South/Ferry Dock depending on time of day), and through surface running on Queens Quay west to east.
Failing that I'd order a subfleet of double side double end streetcars, put a crossover in north of Queens Quay and then rip the whole thing out at Union and put 3-4 terminal tracks in there. I'd also institute a frequent bus service from Eireann Quay to York/Richmond/Simcoe along the ROW to reduce taxi demand but also serve the condos and the new commercial buildings south of the rail lands - would also get transit a bit closer to CN Tower/Skydome without getting too disrupted by events at the latter. At present the QQLRT skirts the demand (almost 50% of its catchment is water)
Extending the tunnel up Bay is a non-runner - has to pass the subway and all the sewers etc. already relocated for the 2nd Platform Project, plus the PATH.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I agree with you about the double-ended streetcars. Did the TTC consider a subfleet when it first built the Harbourfront line? It could have saved a lot of hassle with the Union loop (and later the Spadina loop).
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Part of it, I think and not that I'm endorsing it, is that the TTC feels that ALL it's routes terminate or intersect with a subway station. See Spadina streetcar stopping at Union, etc, etc.
dowlingm
Senior Member
I don't know, but I suspect there was an aversion to having two fleets not withstanding that a "subfleet" in Toronto would be the size of a full fleet elsewhere. Perhaps the need for a trolley pole in the interim period was a consideration, whereas the uptown lines will be all-pantograph from day one.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Can someone explain the track diagram above to me? What are the two tracks in the centre for? They don't appear to go anywhere. Are they storage, or do they lead elsewhere?
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drum118
Superstar
The cost of building this loop is the reason why the east QQ line doesn't exist.
The ridership based on what was plan Waterfront would never be handle this new loop. Since the development has increase, this loop is more out dated.
Metrolinx has reserve land for the east side in the new bus terminal for this expansion.
The ridership based on what was plan Waterfront would never be handle this new loop. Since the development has increase, this loop is more out dated.
Metrolinx has reserve land for the east side in the new bus terminal for this expansion.