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For major cities that have million(s) or even hundreds of thousands of population, a frequency that is only daily would be an abysmal failure. However, for smaller places where the total population along the line is less than 100,000, a single daily train gong both ways and is on time can be successful, providing the arrival in the destination is good for the ridership. Since the destination is Toronto, getting in at 1055am and leaving at 630pm, for most people needing to do business in the city, it can cut down on the hotel stays.

I would love to see multiple times a day, but I also need to ask whether it would actually change anything. Maybe twice a day, 12 hours apart is the most this line should ever see, regardless of how flush with cash the province ever gets.
There are certainly people who are willing to spend the night (or half of it) in a train to spend the day in the city, but there are also people who want to travel during the day so that they can spend the night in bed. And then there are people who want to leave early in the morning to spend as much time as possible at their destination, just like there are people who want to arrive late in the evening to spend as much time as possible at their origin.

It is impossible to satisfy these conflicting needs with a single train - and that is why two-to-four buses per day will always win over a single train per day, while costing a fraction in operating expenses and subsidies of what a daily passenger train would cost to operate…
 
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Looked it up myself: More than half-a-billion in capital costs and with $1 in Economic or Financial benefits for every $3-4 invested. Abysmal!

Still a 3x better return than some of Ford's other large expenditures like Eglinton West.

This government makes popular investments, not wise ones.
 
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Still a 3x better return than some of Ford's other large expenditures like Eglinton West.

This government makes popular investments, not wise ones.
Wow, I really thought this can’t be true, but turns out you are right:
IMG_3126.jpeg

 
There are certainly people who are willing to spend the night (or half of it) in a train to spend the day in the city, but there are also people who want to travel during the day so that they can spend the night in bed. And then there are people who want to leave early in the morning to spend as much time as possible at their destination, just like there are people who want to arrive late in the evening to spend as much time as possible at their origin.

It is impossible to satisfy these conflicting needs with a single train - and that is why two-to-four buses per day will always win over a single train per day, while costing a fraction in operating expenses and subsidies of what a daily passenger train would cost to operate…

Try spending hours on a bus.
Seriously, I challenge you to take the bus to Timmins and back. They run during the day.

People have actually said that they would rather the train runs at night so they don't need to spend that extra night in a hotel. This is giving people what they want.
The nearest station for me is about 2 hours away. I am seriously considering driving to it instead of to Toronto when I need to go to Toronto. I am not alone in that thinking.
 
Try spending hours on a bus.
Seriously, I challenge you to take the bus to Timmins and back. They run during the day.
Thank you, I’ve taken as a student the overnight bus from Leeds (England) to Dublin (Ireland), which unlike today was a direct bus but probably still took in excess of 12 hours, before transferring to Cork (probably another 4 hours), and I can only describe it as one of the most gruesome travel experiences I ever encountered:
IMG_3128.jpeg

That said, the Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) have incredibly confortable, reliable and affordable buses, which have relegated intercity passenger trains to close to irrelevance…

People have actually said that they would rather the train runs at night so they don't need to spend that extra night in a hotel. This is giving people what they want.
The nearest station for me is about 2 hours away. I am seriously considering driving to it instead of to Toronto when I need to go to Toronto. I am not alone in that thinking.
Yes, there are undoubtedly people who would be masochistic (or desperate) enough to stand at 3am on a train platform to wait for their Toronto-bound train to depart, but even at their most optimistic ridership forecast, you would have barely more than a busload of people on board (60,110 / 365 days / 2 directions = 82 passengers per departure)…
 
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Thank you, I’ve taken as a student the overnight bus from Leeds (England) to Dublin (Ireland), which unlike today was a direct bus but probably still took in excess of 12 hours, before transferring to Cork (probably another 4 hours), and I can only describe it as one of the most gruesome travel experience I ever encountered:

That said, the Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) have incredibly confortable, reliable and affordable buses, which have relegated intercity passenger trains to close to irrelevance…

So, if you had the choice of a ~8 hour trip, which mode would you choose? Bus or Train?

Yes, there are undoubtedly people who would be masochistic (or desperate) enough to stand at 3am on a train platform to wait for their Toronto-bound train to depart, but even at their most optimistic ridership forecast, you would have barely more than a busload of people on board (60,110 / 365 days / 2 directions = 82 passengers per departure)…
To get hat amount from a population base of under100,000, that's pretty good.
 
So, if you had the choice of a ~8 hour trip, which mode would you choose? Bus or Train?
Is that even a question? Of course I would have preferred taking a train (if there had been offered one, but I believe that the rail ferry to Sicily is the only remaining passenger rail ferry service in all of Europe), but this is not a question about what modes people prefer if given a choice: it’s about what are the most effective ways to address mobility needs with constrained financial (public) resources…
To get hat amount from a population base of under100,000, that's pretty good.
Sure, but this is like sports: the medals and prices should go to those who achieve the best results, not those who had to put in the most efforts…

Anyways, remind me again how this discussion relates to the topic of this thread…? ;)
 
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Thank you, I’ve taken as a student the overnight bus from Leeds (England) to Dublin (Ireland), which unlike today was a direct bus but probably still took in excess of 12 hours, before transferring to Cork (probably another 4 hours), and I can only describe it as one of the most gruesome travel experience I ever encountered:

That said, the Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) have incredibly confortable, reliable and affordable buses, which have relegated intercity passenger trains to close to irrelevance…

This is the key. I recently endured a bustitution in a Scottish highway coach that was even more cramped than the discount airplane that got me there, driven by a youth who hurled f-bombs at opposing drivers as he tailgated and hurtled around blind curves on a very winding road. But not all bus services need to be that way.

A subsidy to a bus service that compensates the operator for whatever capacity adjustment is needed to provide the necessary amount of comfort and space, and includes oversight over safety and passenger experience, is going to be far more economical to provide than the subsidy needed to install and maintain rail service on the same lesser route.

Intercity bus service is as good or bad as we design it to be, but it does work if allowed to. On this continent, we have traditionally treated it as the mode of last resort. We have fulfilled our own (lack of) vision.

- Paul
 
Some people seem to have a really hard time with the idea that the broader public doesn't want to spend more on intercity transport. That by definition means prioritizing routes and modes to get the most efficient use of limited funding.

The question isn't one of train or bus. It's a question of whether there will be service at all. Bureaucrats at MTO and TC aren't making funding decisions based on pleasing railfans.

Want three trains to Timmins? Have to convince a majority of voters in Ontario that this should be a priority.
 
Since we will need to settle this at some point, CN demanded partial triple-planning at a time (2007-2009) when VIA operated 12 frequencies per day along the Lakeshore (5tpd to Ottawa, 6tpd to Montreal and 1tpd to Kingston):

When HFR was still a VIA project, VIA communicated its intention to run the same 12 frequencies per day as it did between 1996 and 2012:

Why would the same frequency which was considered by CN 15 years ago as the upper limit with only two tracks now be too little to justify keeping the second track and maintaining it to Track Class 5?

All of this I have said before, and I suspect we simply have to agree to disagree and wait for the outcome...but to provide the explanation....

I have lost track of whether the 12 K-T trains in that graphic are each way versus both ways added together.. I suspect (without proof) that this is a notional "someday" number rather than the committed plan for HFR's Opening Day. CN may be comfortable with that vision, but may be prepared to play it out - if VIA starts out at a lower footprint, and CN makes gradual changes that make that target number harder to achieve, it's not CN's problem.

Even at the more optimistic number....

The tonnage CN hauls between Toronto and Montreal is roughly of the same magnitude as the tonnage that it hauls between Toronto and Winnipeg. Any velocity increment derived T-M from having double track is minimal, especially with all the VIA trains currently in the way. So absent VIA, CN's business model would likely prefer a less capital intensive main line consisting of single track with sidings. Some double track zones will be operationally desirable, but the overriding mentality will be to haul the tonnage at the lowest possible capital investment. So CN likely regards some of the double track as expendable, once VIA reduces its footprint.

CN has inherited the historical burden of VIA T-O-M service...., even a hardnosed private business would not go head-to-head with public opinion by trying to kill a successful service between the nation's most important major cities in Eastern Canada. But move that T-O-M business to another line, and maybe CN can push the envelope more aggressively on service to the Lakeshore.

Post-HFR, the bureaucracy in Ottawa (and possibly every future government, regardless of party stripe) will be far more fixated on reducing subsidy than on meeting the Lakeshore corridor's transportation needs. So, again, nobody is going to stand up to CN if it erodes the regional service.

My personal fixation with the Lakeshore service is based on my belief that there will be considerable population growth along the Lakeshore and therefore we will eventually want that full 12-train-each-way regional service. While it may not need to be as speedy as the present service, it will need to be operationally efficient and roughly auto-competitive.

I foresee HFR leading to an interim scenario where VIA removes its service to some de minimus level, CN downsizes the infrastructure accordingly, and VIA (or government) later has to pressure CN to restore it as service needs grow.

The fundamental nonsequitur in the whole plan as you have portrayed it is.... how will anybody operate a full regional service in a mixed corridor under the very conditions that justify moving T-O-M traffic to its own line. If we can rectify the freight-passenger conflicts so easily to preserve a full Lakeshore service, then we don't need HFR at all. The difference in train speed is not a deciding factor - at a headway of 12 fairly speedy trains daily each way, freights will get in the way, and the taxpayer will be paying CN to build and maintain the same amount of triple track that was requested to sustain the "old" plan.

I expect that one day (not right away, but eventually) we will build a new line along the Lakeshore for regional service for the very same reasons that we need to move HFR to its own line. Let's not pretend that a quality regional service can be delivered on CN's tracks.

Lastly I would point to the downgrading of Toronto-London service between the early eighties and the late 1990's as a precedent. That corridor has greater urgency for better regional and intercity service than east of Toronto. It would be unrealistic to say to CN, hey, we used to run this many trains, let's just put them back. That is the same scenario that I foresee east of Toronto. We need to protect the eventual capacity without the same erosion that happened elsewhere between 1990 and today.

- Paul
 
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People have actually said that they would rather the train runs at night so they don't need to spend that extra night in a hotel. This is giving people what they want.
The nearest station for me is about 2 hours away. I am seriously considering driving to it instead of to Toronto when I need to go to Toronto. I am not alone in that thinking.
This is why I keep hanging my hat on business cases. If enough "people" have their wants fulfilled by a less costly bus connection, then the need is satisfied. Of course there will always be a subset of people who want travel accommodations like Air Emirates sleeping pods.


 
Why would the same frequency which was considered by CN 15 years ago as the upper limit with only two tracks now be too little to justify keeping the second track and maintaining it to Track Class 5?

I will put forward one last comment on the Lakeshore line.

The assumption post-HFR is that with the through T-O-M business shifted away, the need for faster Toronto-Kingston timings is greatly reduced, such that VIA local trains operating at a lower velocity will fit in between freight trains such that they seldom or never catch up.

I did a very primitive model to test this theory.

The Regional service that will emerge post-HFR will at best mirror the timings of VIA 42 and 48, which make multiple stops between Oshawa and Kingston. These trains run from Oshawa to Kingston in 112-117 minutes, a velocity of 64-67 mph - far from shabby and quite auto competitive.

So, the question to model is, if a CN freight passes through Oshawa, how far must it travel before it has enough of a lead to stay ahead of a VIA train heading for Kingston.

One must assume that the freight loses time in a crew change in Belleville. One must also assume that the freight must have passed Kingston some number of minutes before VIA to keep the signals cleared.

The results are interesting. If a CN freight is able to maintain 60 mph throughout (as the hottest intermodals may do today), then currently a freight train must leave Oshawa 34 minutes ahead of the slowest stopping VIA trains to stay clear. But if the freight can only maintain 40 mph on average - that "cushion" increases to 96 minutes.

One can see why at current headways, VIA needs triple track today, as it is certain to need to overtake freight trains.

Now suppose that CN reduces the top track speed, causing VIA velocity to reduce and VIA trip time to rise. for starters, let's reduce VIA velocity to 60 mph.

If freights only maintain 40 mph, the CN freight will need to leave Oshawa 88 minutes before the VIA does to stay clear. That's not an acceptable constraint on CN operations.

The conclusion I draw is that either the plan is for VIA to significantly slow its trains and increase its travel time, falling behind auto competitiveness - or CN will have to keep its freights moving faster than it does today.

It's very primitive math - but it demonstrates the point.

- Paul

1696098091316.png
 
This is why I keep hanging my hat on business cases. If enough "people" have their wants fulfilled by a less costly bus connection, then the need is satisfied. Of course there will always be a subset of people who want travel accommodations like Air Emirates sleeping pods.


The problem is, in Canada, there really is no business case for a passenger service that is not subsidized. That is why the government is there - to do services that will never turn a profit. So, the question is 'What is the upper limit of a subsidy that is acceptable?' That is not a clear answer, and most likely never will be. Another question to ask is how full should a train be? And to tie that to the other question, should a full train mean no subsidy? Sometimes people talk of European service for models that we should follow,but, the UK does run "ghost trains"or parliamentary trains. Should we only do the good, or can we see how their good and bad is why their systems are better?
 
The problem is, in Canada, there really is no business case for a passenger service that is not subsidized. That is why the government is there - to do services that will never turn a profit. So, the question is 'What is the upper limit of a subsidy that is acceptable?' That is not a clear answer, and most likely never will be. Another question to ask is how full should a train be? And to tie that to the other question, should a full train mean no subsidy? Sometimes people talk of European service for models that we should follow,but, the UK does run "ghost trains"or parliamentary trains. Should we only do the good, or can we see how their good and bad is why their systems are better?
The metric to assess how dependent a transportation service is on subsidies is commonly referred to as „farebox recovery rate“, which describes what proportion of a service‘s operating costs is actually covered with passenger revenues. Here a few examples from pre-Covid times:

VIA‘s Remote services: ~10-20%
VIA‘s Ocean: ~40%
Transit networks: ~50% (typical value)
Ontario Northland‘s bus services: ~75%
VIA‘s Canadian: ~95%
VIA‘s Corridor services: ~130%

Why invest in the „Northlander“ which is projected to loose more than $3 for every $1 earned in ticket revenues, when Ontario Northland‘s buses only loose one-tenth of that ($0.33 for every $1 earned)?

Why invest in the Northlander when it costs more than half-a-billion in start-up costs, when buses have considerably lower start-up costs as they use the public road network?

Why invest in passenger rail on low-ridership corridors if its per-train-km operating costs are approximately ten (!) times that of an intercity bus?
 
The metric to assess how dependent a transportation service is on subsidies is commonly referred to as „farebox recovery rate“, which describes what proportion of a service‘s operating costs is actually covered with passenger revenues. Here a few examples from pre-Covid times:

VIA‘s Remote services: ~10-20%
VIA‘s Ocean: ~40%
Transit networks: ~50% (typical value)
Ontario Northland‘s bus services: ~75%
VIA‘s Canadian: ~95%
VIA‘s Corridor services: ~130%

Why invest in the „Northlander“ which is projected to loose more than $3 for every $1 earned in ticket revenues, when Ontario Northland‘s buses only loose one-tenth of that ($0.33 for every $1 earned)?

Why invest in the Northlander when it costs more than half-a-billion in start-up costs, when buses have considerably lower start-up costs as they use the public road network?

Why invest in passenger rail on low-ridership corridors if its per-train-km operating costs are approximately ten (!) times that of an intercity bus?

Much as it pains me to say so, Micheal has a point here...........

In this way.

Highways do nothing but lose money. No tolls (for the vast majority).

We must, at the very least, be orthodox and apply the same standard to each mode, otherwise everything being discussed is a misconception/lie.

Either we charge back each mode for the cost of maintaining its track/travel lane, or we charge nothing back of either.

In which case the cost is solely that of operating the vehicle over 'x' distance.

While a proper calculation may not actually change the result, it might, in select cases.

****

Lets equally add, while we discuss that fixing the Toronto-Sudbury rail alignment as entirely unreasonable due to cost; that highway 69 has been, is being and will be systematically re-aligned, re-engineered and widened to become Highway 400 along its entire length at a rather substantial cost.

****

The above is not an argument for Toronto-Sudbury or any other rail service; it is for a fair, consistent standard of evaluation; even if that doesn't change a single business case.
 

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