[Urban Sky]

Lets imagine every CN track within 100km of Union station was affected for a week.
"if I were in charge..."
I would double up the GO trains. So, that 12 car train is now 24. Then, cut the service in half on the routes.You can move the same amount of people.
I would do the same with Via.
I would cut the speed in half or lower. They would all stop at each station and light and before moving, get the clearance to go. It would be much slower, but it would still move.
For freight, Washago would be where freight is handed off to head north/south, not Mac yard. I would then reach out to ONR and just like a few years ago, I would reroute all oversiding trains through Northern ON/QC. They did it before, and they likely could do it again. All freight movements would be done outside of the GO service to prevent the meeting of freight and passenger trains.

All of those things are possible, but would be very resource taxing. It would be tough going, but it would still be moving.

Micheal, I really appreciate your genuine efforts to provide a solution for a (hopefully: hypothetical) major service disruption, but I can almost guarantee you that you will never come up with any workable solution given that you lack (just like 95% of the commenters here - and that‘s of course totally fine, since this is not your day job!) the operational exposure to a relevant railway network to understand the implications of any of the measures you propose here (both, in isolation and in conjunction with each other)…

 

[lenaitch]

For freight, Washago would be where freight is handed off to head north/south, not Mac yard.

Now that's just plain hilarious!

 

[rbt]

Thank you, I didn’t know that! I recall that the Montréal Métro had outages during major power outages, so I assume this is not the case here (and again: the cost of ensuring an Uninterrupted Power Supply would be astronomical…

My memory was off by an order of magnitude. It's 30MWh of battery storage for 4 hours operations during a blackout.

New green energy facility powering up the Eglinton Crosstown LRT

Latest updates on Eglinton Crosstown LRT progress

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Until VIA operates over enough fully-electrified corridors to justify the acquisition of fully electric trainsets, a power loss should not stop them from simply switching to diesel power (provided that the signalling system is protected through UPS systems, of course)…

Indeed. I was presuming that HFR would be wholly electric, presuming it gets built.

 

[micheal_can]

Now that's just plain hilarious!

If you are diverting north on the Newmarket Sub, why not hand it off in the yard connecting it?

 

[Urban Sky]

If you are diverting north on the Newmarket Sub, why not hand it off in the yard connecting it?

The „yard“ in Washago:

 

[lenaitch]

If you are diverting north on the Newmarket Sub, why not hand it off in the yard connecting it?

Ok, its a rainy day, I'll play. Just considering CN, your plan during some catastrophic system failure is to divert traffic through northern Ontario/Quebec. First off, going north on the GO-owned Newmarket sub gets you to Barrie, no further, so assume you mean the CN Bala sub.

Assuming a control system failure and not a particular blockage like happened at Tyendinaga, why send trains on a long circuitous, lower weigh capacity, unfamiliar route.

Trains, now approaching a couple of kilometers long, get assembled and broken up at places like Mac Yard and the BIT. Many, probably most, trains don't enter and leave these yards intact. Some of the goods are actually destined for the GTA and get handed off the customers/logistical carriers. You plan to do that at Washago. A place with a small dirt parking,, I believe, one service track, and serviced by a local two-lane road. On top of that, no service or maintenance facilities. That's your "yard".

 

[micheal_can]

Ok, its a rainy day, I'll play. Just considering CN, your plan during some catastrophic system failure is to divert traffic through northern Ontario/Quebec. First off, going north on the GO-owned Newmarket sub gets you to Barrie, no further, so assume you mean the CN Bala sub.

Assuming a control system failure and not a particular blockage like happened at Tyendinaga, why send trains on a long circuitous, lower weigh capacity, unfamiliar route.

Trains, now approaching a couple of kilometers long, get assembled and broken up at places like Mac Yard and the BIT. Many, probably most, trains don't enter and leave these yards intact. Some of the goods are actually destined for the GTA and get handed off the customers/logistical carriers. You plan to do that at Washago. A place with a small dirt parking,, I believe, one service track, and serviced by a local two-lane road. On top of that, no service or maintenance facilities. That's your "yard".

The CN Newmarket Sub is also the section between Washago and North Bay.

Rainy day in the sandbox thinking...

Trains coming from the west pass through many yards all along the route. Right now, most of the Capreol yard is empty. So, they could build the trains there that are heading to Mac yard or heading to Montreal from the west.If a train is going to Montreal with no cars for southern/ON, it can be diverted north to get to the CN Val D'or Sub Anything going to Southern ON could be made up in the Capreol yard and fit into whatever slots are available. Anything destined for the USA have a few options as well. I remember seeing pictures of long double stack unit trains passing through North Bay when the blockade happened. If a shutdown persists, they will figure out options. They owe that to their shareholders.

I'd imagine if GO and Via were told they could only run half as many trains, and this would persist for days, they may start lengthening the trains with existing trains.

 

[Urban Sky]

The CN Newmarket Sub is also the section between Washago and North Bay.

Rainy day in the sandbox thinking...

Trains coming from the west pass through many yards all along the route. Right now, most of the Capreol yard is empty. So, they could build the trains there that are heading to Mac yard or heading to Montreal from the west.If a train is going to Montreal with no cars for southern/ON, it can be diverted north to get to the CN Val D'or Sub Anything going to Southern ON could be made up in the Capreol yard and fit into whatever slots are available. Anything destined for the USA have a few options as well. I remember seeing pictures of long double stack unit trains passing through North Bay when the blockade happened. If a shutdown persists, they will figure out options. They owe that to their shareholders.

I'd imagine if GO and Via were told they could only run half as many trains, and this would persist for days, they may start lengthening the trains with existing trains.

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[crs1026]

^I'm really not sure what problem the rainy day analysis is trying to solve.

Any business has a disaster recovery plan. That may include simulations, tabletop exercises, contingency plans, etc etc. It includes backups, equipment redundancies, etc.

I don't know if CN or GO have ever tabletopped this week's particular scenario, but I doubt they considered reworking their entire freight network to mitigate or prevent it. In this case, CN did have the capability to assume dispatching for GO.... but did not fully deploy that capability because there were quicker solutions available. This was, after all, only a one day event.

If you want to imagine scenarios that could cripple the railway network, don't bother with internet infrastructure.... it's pretty easy to rebuild and recover. Think earthquakes or mudslides or other natural disasters that take out things that require months or years to rebuild.

A few years ago, when a derailment threatened a key bridge on CP's western main line, they had to contemplate shifting their entire traffic base to other railroads for a lengthy period. I'm sure there are scenarios that no one has thoughtof, but I am confident that they know what they would do in many eventualities. I'm not sure this forum can do better than they already do in preparation for such crises.

- Paul
.

 

[crs1026]

I'm not sure I agree with your equivalencies. Physician shortages in the north (or many rural areas for that matter - the number of ED closures this year in western Ontario has been significant) are not for lack of money; doctors are not government employees. Is government spending in a given part of the province to be considered as a fixed pot, doled out by the grace and favour of Queen's Park? I doubt the people who were advocating for a return of rail service were under the impression that it was an either-or, zero-sum equation. Does one new doctor mean two or three fewer teachers?

'Sorry, no bus service to Owen Sound - we gave the hospital in Teeswater more money. You people should know better.'

No sane politician would come out and make that kind of statement publicly.... but some of the backroom discussions are likely this blunt. A government prepares budgets which take all the spending proposals and decides on a selection of these that does the most good (as they judge it) and represents enough action and investment to satisfy the electorate... but it's a rationed selection, not an abundant overflowing cornucopia (well, maybe with some Liberal cabinets....)

My comment about hospitals vs trains may have been a bit simplistic in the sense that funding hospitals does not directly create a supply of doctors.... but certainly the decision on how deeply to fund medical schools comes out of that same finite funding pot. So a comment like "Look we gave them a train, we aren't also giving them x...." is fundamentally what goes on in camera.

My point being.... getting back to the poster who wanted to oppose the Northlander project..... putting forward suggestions on how the money might be better spent to benefit the North more is fundamentally fair game, and might actually generate some support if the right alternatives were highlighted.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

^I'm really not sure what problem the rainy day analysis is trying to solve.

Any business has a disaster recovery plan. That may include simulations, tabletop exercises, contingency plans, etc etc. It includes backups, equipment redundancies, etc.

I don't know if CN or GO have ever tabletopped this week's particular scenario, but I doubt they considered reworking their entire freight network to mitigate or prevent it. In this case, CN did have the capability to assume dispatching for GO.... but did not fully deploy that capability because there were quicker solutions available. This was, after all, only a one day event.

If you want to imagine scenarios that could cripple the railway network, don't bother with internet infrastructure.... it's pretty easy to rebuild and recover. Think earthquakes or mudslides or other natural disasters that take out things that require months or years to rebuild.

A few years ago, when a derailment threatened a key bridge on CP's western main line, they had to contemplate shifting their entire traffic base to other railroads for a lengthy period. I'm sure there are scenarios that no one has thoughtof, but I am confident that they know what they would do in many eventualities. I'm not sure this forum can do better than they already do in preparation for such crises.

- Paul
.

The scenario was what if what happened to Canada's largest metro area persisted.

Natural disasters are scary, but that part of the country is relatively stable. Whereas, network outages are becoming commonplace. Besides, CN gets crippled every year when winter comes around

 

[lenaitch]

No sane politician would come out and make that kind of statement publicly.... but some of the backroom discussions are likely this blunt. A government prepares budgets which take all the spending proposals and decides on a selection of these that does the most good (as they judge it) and represents enough action and investment to satisfy the electorate... but it's a rationed selection, not an abundant overflowing cornucopia (well, maybe with some Liberal cabinets....)

My comment about hospitals vs trains may have been a bit simplistic in the sense that funding hospitals does not directly create a supply of doctors.... but certainly the decision on how deeply to fund medical schools comes out of that same finite funding pot. So a comment like "Look we gave them a train, we aren't also giving them x...." is fundamentally what goes on in camera.

My point being.... getting back to the poster who wanted to oppose the Northlander project..... putting forward suggestions on how the money might be better spent to benefit the North more is fundamentally fair game, and might actually generate some support if the right alternatives were highlighted.

- Paul

Or cause the government to divert the funds to other ridings (votes) grumbling 'screw them - ungrateful buggers'.

 

[lenaitch]

The CN Newmarket Sub is also the section between Washago and North Bay.

Rainy day in the sandbox thinking...

Trains coming from the west pass through many yards all along the route. Right now, most of the Capreol yard is empty. So, they could build the trains there that are heading to Mac yard or heading to Montreal from the west.If a train is going to Montreal with no cars for southern/ON, it can be diverted north to get to the CN Val D'or Sub Anything going to Southern ON could be made up in the Capreol yard and fit into whatever slots are available. Anything destined for the USA have a few options as well. I remember seeing pictures of long double stack unit trains passing through North Bay when the blockade happened. If a shutdown persists, they will figure out options. They owe that to their shareholders.

I'd imagine if GO and Via were told they could only run half as many trains, and this would persist for days, they may start lengthening the trains with existing trains.

Trains coming from the west - via Canada. A lot of western traffic on both CN and CP comes through the US before re-entering Ontario and must pass through the GTA.

Sorry, when you said diverting onto the Newmarket sub, I though you meant from the south. There is no yard at Washago. Anything coming south on the Bala sub would have to somehow re-arrange to go north on the Newmarket unless they connected across the OVR.

I agree with CRS that any business worth its salt should have disaster recovery plans, but its pretty hard to economically cover every possible iteration. Even at that, whatever contingency they have in their back pocket wouldn't likely be invoked for at least several days. Sometimes, doing nothing is the suitable response.

Anyway, I'm bored with this topic now.

 

[micheal_can]

Trains coming from the west - via Canada. A lot of western traffic on both CN and CP comes through the US before re-entering Ontario and must pass through the GTA.

Sorry, when you said diverting onto the Newmarket sub, I though you meant from the south. There is no yard at Washago. Anything coming south on the Bala sub would have to somehow re-arrange to go north on the Newmarket unless they connected across the OVR.

I agree with CRS that any business worth its salt should have disaster recovery plans, but its pretty hard to economically cover every possible iteration. Even at that, whatever contingency they have in their back pocket wouldn't likely be invoked for at least several days. Sometimes, doing nothing is the suitable response.

Anyway, I'm bored with this topic now.

It was a fun topic that hopefully doesn't happen again.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Does this still run?