[kEiThZ]

The UTDC bilevel is relatively successful, but the numbers are roughly 1,600 units produced over 35 years

That's an average of less than 1 per week. That's really not output conducive to employing a lot of people. Maybe 500 people working at that plant is a lot for Thunder Bay. But that's not even a full shift at a larger auto assembly plant.

 

[micheal_can]

That's an average of less than 1 per week. That's really not output conducive to employing a lot of people. Maybe 500 people working at that plant is a lot for Thunder Bay. But that's not even a full shift at a larger auto assembly plant.

Work - CEDC

There’s a world of employment possibilities to discover outside of the big city. Rewarding professional careers attract more people from large cities.

gotothunderbay.ca

It is a top employer for a city of over 108,000

 

[kEiThZ]

Work - CEDC

There’s a world of employment possibilities to discover outside of the big city. Rewarding professional careers attract more people from large cities.

gotothunderbay.ca

It is a top employer for a city of over 108,000

Great for them. But irrelevant to the question of how to keep tens of thousands of auto workers employed in Southwestern Ontario. And really, if we're talking about creating employment for SWO with rolling stock manufacturing, the first jobs we should be looking to move are those. After all, it is kind of pointless to build rolling stock a thousand kilometres from the region using them.

 

[micheal_can]

Great for them. But irrelevant to the question of how to keep tens of thousands of auto workers employed in Southwestern Ontario. And really, if we're talking about creating employment for SWO with rolling stock manufacturing, the first jobs we should be looking to move are those. After all, it is kind of pointless to build rolling stock a thousand kilometres from the region using them.

If that is the goal, another auto sector plant is the way to go.
If you goal is to create jobs, then the water gets much more murkier. For instance, If your goal was to replace oil sector jobs, then something in the auto sector is useless.

I don't seethe battery plant as bad, but I can see other ways it could be spent.

 

[kEiThZ]

If that is the goal, another auto sector plant is the way to go.
If you goal is to create jobs, then the water gets much more murkier. For instance, If your goal was to replace oil sector jobs, then something in the auto sector is useless.

I don't seethe battery plant as bad, but I can see other ways it could be spent.

Interesting how the battery plant isn't a bad idea when an employer in your region is looked at as a candidate to be moved.

A major plank of Joe Biden's argument for green investment (including massive public transport investment in the US) was that this investment would create quality employment for American workers. Similarly in Canada, the Trudeau Liberals argued for a "Just Transition" that provides workers in legacy sectors with quality employment that has the least transition burden possible for workers. We're not going to build support for all kinds of green initiatives by arguing that workers in legacy field should learn completely new jobs or they should just move. Canada went through this once with the Maritimes and collapse of the fisheries. Letting this happen in the heartland of Canada would be absolutely devastating to the country. Am I ever grateful that some of you here aren't anywhere close to anybody that has real power.

 

[nfitz]

Something like a rail car plant could be put in Central Canada and provide good paying jobs. Not so much for a battery plant. To far from the resources and too far from the auto plants they will go to.

This is completely off-topic ... and why you can't put a battery plant in central Canada I don't know. Virtually all our auto manufacturing is in central Canada.

Alstom has surely got too many manufacturing plants in Central Canada. I'd think that in addition to Thunder Bay, they'd be closing some in southern Ontario and/or Quebec.

 

[Urban Sky]

This is completely off-topic ... and why you can't put a battery plant in central Canada I don't know. Virtually all our auto manufacturing is in central Canada.

Alstom has surely got too many manufacturing plants in Central Canada. I'd think that in addition to Thunder Bay, they'd be closing some in southern Ontario and/or Quebec.

To get this discussion at least back on (not just metaphorical) rails: where does Bombardier produce (other than Thunder Bay and La Pocatière) and is there any logical split between what which plant does?

 

[nfitz]

When I think of Central Canada, I think of AB, SK and MB.

The fantasy map thread is at https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/

Can you stop inventing your own nonexistent stuff, and using it to sidetrack and confuse. Central Canada has been a well-defined term for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Canada

 

[micheal_can]

To get this discussion at least back on (not just metaphorical) rails: where does Bombardier produce (other than Thunder Bay and La Pocatière) and is there any logical split between what which plant does?

Bombardier Transportation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looking at the list,I doubt much could be moved or even should be moved.

 

[nfitz]

To get this discussion at least back on (not just metaphorical) rails: where does Bombardier produce (other than Thunder Bay and La Pocatière) and is there any logical split between what which plant does?

Kingston (Bath), Brampton (Alstom). I believe there's a facility in Sorel. And almost in Canada, is the facility in Plattsburgh; I've known Canadians commuting there daily from just across the border.

Off the top of my head.

 

[crs1026]

Kingston (Bath), Brampton (Alstom). I believe there's a facility in Sorel. And almost in Canada, is the facility in Plattsburgh; I've known Canadians commuting there daily from just across the border.

Off the top of my head.

Don't forget Hornell and Elmira NY, which are relevant competition to Bombardier and just across the border.

Railcar assembly is a nomad's existence. There are components that demand heavy foundries or specialised shops that have ongoing existence, sure.... but transit assembly plants work on the basis of one production run, maybe a repeat order if lucky.... the investment in the production infrastructure is nowhere near what is contemplated to build autos (or TV sets, for that matter). I doubt anybody in say Alstom Brampton expects the same degree of job security as people at Toyota in Cambridge (and even then, those workers are at the mercy of where Toyota is considering building as its next model, which may demand a new production line somewhere).

What St Thomas has going for it is connectivity to the "network" of auto plants and parts manufacturers between Chicago, New York, and Cincinatti. You won't see an auto plant spring up in Winnipeg as the supply chain ain't there. The "micro" analysis of how we landed in St Thomas (or Windsor) lies within that macro reality.

So, sure, if VIa were to reequip its long distance fleet, there will be builders in Ontario and Quebec trying to land the work....but an asssembly line in Ontario that continues to churn out passenger railcars for a decade or more is a fantasy. Amfleet, Superliner, Viewliner fleets all had a beginning and an end. Where are their factories today. Venture and Acela will too.

Toronto only needs so many subway cars. Thunder Bay has done well, and I hope that continues, but even there periodic layoffs and recalls are a reality.

- Paul

 

[DSC]

I didn't start this, nor am I keeping it going.

I no longer care, count yourself added to my (very small) 'Ignore" list.

 

[roger1818]

Nobody has suggested that Newfoundland is part of Western Canada, so not sure where this silly comparison comes from.

I picked Alaska since the Aleutian Islands extend past the International Date Line, so technically it is the most eastern, western and northern State (Hawaii is the most southern). You are right though and a more valid comparison would be California.

Anyways, this is completely off-topic, so can someone remind us again what the topic of this thread is?

I am going to Montreal with my daughter in a couple weeks and just booked my tickets today (using the Tuesday discount). I beleive I will be on Venture trains both ways. The automatic seat selection gave us bad seats (facing backwards one way and both of us with aisle seats in the same row with people beside both of us the other). Forward facing seats together were available, so I was able to change them.

 

[Urban Sky]

I picked Alaska since the Aleutian Islands extend past the International Date Line, so technically it is the most eastern, western and northern State (Hawaii is the most southern). You are right though and a more valid comparison would be California.

It isn’t even a remotely valid comparison once you look at where people live: According to the 2021 Census, 61.4% of Canadians live in Quebec or Ontario, 31.7% live to its West, 6.5% to its East and 0.3% to its North. The three adminstrative regions of Quebec which border the Atlantic account for only 2.6% of the population of Quebec and 1.0% of that of QC and ON combined. Conversely, Californians account for only 11.7% of US population, but the overwhelming majority of them lives along the Pacific Coast.

I am going to Montreal with my daughter in a couple weeks and just booked my tickets today (using the Tuesday discount). I beleive I will be on Venture trains both ways. The automatic seat selection gave us bad seats (facing backwards one way and both of us with aisle seats in the same row with people beside both of us the other). Forward facing seats together were available, so I was able to change them.

Isn’t it great that we can now change our seats on our own? Enjoy your trip on board the Ventures, just like I did on my only trip (668 TRTO to MTRL on the first Friday of December) to date…!

 

[Frank_Lee]

Glad you finally see how ridiculous it is to see one investment as substitutable with another.

Some of you here are getting close to the meme of techbros telling assembly workers about how they should just learn to code.



I'm not sure what you're talking about. Most of our infrastructure is designed and built by Canadian workers. Most of our rolling stock is assembled in Canada. Most of the parts are made in Canada too. Plenty are designed here too. Can you provide examples of rolling stock that were built outside Canada, that you believe we should have made in Canada? The only example that comes close is the Siemens Venture order and it's too small an order to justify Canadian production when Siemens already had a plant running in California.

The example doesn't exist because the infrastructure doesn't exist to run it on. There's a chicken and egg problem here.