[crs1026]

That is a concern, but don't overstate it. Ontario has more undeveloped or underdeveloped farmland available than could conceivably be filled by urban sprawl within the next 200 years. You could carve out the entirety of the GTHA just in the land around Timmins and turn it into farmland. (Not making this up)

I would still rather site the urban sprawl around Timmins and leave the farmland in Southern Ontario alone.

Sprawl is its own enemy, it's inefficient with respect to urban infrastructure and it induces auto dependency.

I would like to see some harder data about the relative productivity of farmland in the North versus Southern Ontario. Sounds like they are pushing for niche farms rather than crop by crop replacement of Southern Ontario output.

Green space in Southern Ontario also breaks up the urban areas, the Pickering airport being a good example.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

I would like to see some harder data about the relative productivity of farmland in the North versus Southern Ontario. Sounds like they are pushing for niche farms rather than crop by crop replacement of Southern Ontario output.

Where are significant agricultural lands located?

Figure 2 shows the CLI classifications and heat units for southern Ontario. It is important to remember that prime agricultural lands, Classes 1, 2, and 3 and specialty croplands, are a very limited resource in Canada. Only 5% of the Canadian land mass is made up of prime land. Only 0.5% of it is Class 1. The Central Ontario Zone is fortunate to contain a significant portion of this very limited resource. Unfortunately, it occurs in one of the fastest-growing regions of the country.

 

[micheal_can]

I would still rather site the urban sprawl around Timmins and leave the farmland in Southern Ontario alone.

Sprawl is its own enemy, it's inefficient with respect to urban infrastructure and it induces auto dependency.

I would like to see some harder data about the relative productivity of farmland in the North versus Southern Ontario. Sounds like they are pushing for niche farms rather than crop by crop replacement of Southern Ontario output.

Green space in Southern Ontario also breaks up the urban areas, the Pickering airport being a good example.

- Paul

If we had levels of governments working together, planning for growth, we would seen the infrastructure, like inter city rail in place to have that happen. Instead, they placate the existing large voter bases and ignore the areas where growth would not be so bad.

 

[evandyk]

OK, but train or no train, people want to live close (admittedly somewhat vague) to their families, jobs, friends, ethnic communities, churches, etc. Nobody wants to live in Timmins except the handful of people who already do live there.

 

[micheal_can]

OK, but train or no train, people want to live close (admittedly somewhat vague) to their families, jobs, friends, ethnic communities, churches, etc. Nobody wants to live in Timmins except the handful of people who already do live there.

People from places like this tend to move far away from their families for work. Most families do not live within a short distance from their parents.

 

[micheal_can]

Thinking about the inevitable change in federal government, the question of what will happen when PP is in change, I look to the past. The cuts of the 1990swe done under a Liberal government. They were done to balance the budget. The National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy was done under Harper and the Conservatives to replace the aging naval fleet. So, when it comes to HFR/HSR and the Long Distance Fleet replacement, I feel PP will continue it.

 

[crs1026]

OK, but train or no train, people want to live close (admittedly somewhat vague) to their families, jobs, friends, ethnic communities, churches, etc. Nobody wants to live in Timmins except the handful of people who already do live there.

In the main, yes. But just as developing Southern Ontario communities is a pressure relief tool to adding density in the GTA, developing agriculture and urban areas in the North is a perfectly reasonable way to relieve development pressure in Southern Ontario. It may not appeal to everybody, but even a modest population growth in the North makes a difference. That added population supports the economics of social infrastructure eg health care education etc. So while our expectations may be modest, it's a good strategy. And actually, folks up there love living there.

The data @dowlingm posted does suggest that swapping out Southern Ontario farmland is not a good strategy. The claim that there is farmland available up north will be cited by developers down here, but that data clearly refutes that.

In Southern Ontario, if it still has topsoil on it, it's a scarce resource and should not be wasted on low density growth.

- Paul

 

[just east of the creek]

I would still rather site the urban sprawl around Timmins and leave the farmland in Southern Ontario alone.

Sprawl is its own enemy, it's inefficient with respect to urban infrastructure and it induces auto dependency.

I would like to see some harder data about the relative productivity of farmland in the North versus Southern Ontario. Sounds like they are pushing for niche farms rather than crop by crop replacement of Southern Ontario output.

Green space in Southern Ontario also breaks up the urban areas, the Pickering airport being a good example.

- Paul

I could not agree more with your posting. There are areas for growth in Ontario, but the wholesale cannibalism of Ontario Farmland (Region of Waterloo being the latest) calls for change. Change in planning, changes in economic growth policy, changes in the political makeup of some leadership.

When speaking of Ag in N.Ont, one difference off the top of my head will be the number of 'growing degree days'. A critical measure and one that farming in Northern Ontario does not favour, well hello climate change. Having said that there is much usable land in other areas of the Province that has been previously largely abandoned as well. One easy example of this is along the 401, in the general area of Cornwall, where large acreages are being 'reclaimed', they are being stripped of tree's or immature transitional growth to wooded areas, in favour of very large single field acreages, tiled, and suitable for the larger versions of farm equipment. Mostly for corn I believe. These are acreage systems that begin to mimic the very large factory farming operations that can be found in parts of south west Ontario, then west of Ontario in the Prairie provinces, then and south through Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Iowa etc

We often decry the loss of the 'family farm' and the growth of factory farming, I would say that there are a lot of mouths to feed, and as much as I love the mid-size operation, if I had the capital, then bigger (in this case) is more often than not, better.

As for a report on the possibilities of farming in Northern Ontario this report from Guelph in 2017, may shed some light on the subject - both potentials and challenges.

I almost hate to mention it, because when it come to rail we venture into dreamland far to often, but it would be nice to see the occasional grain train moving south in ONR colours, and some potash moving north. That would be a good sign of progress in this area.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

We are wandering very far from the point of this thread but you can’t simply point at a random spot and say “farmland”. There are different classifications of farmland even in the GTA. Are Mennonites and other traditional farming communities moving north? Sure but only because relentless choice to rezone for industrial and residential and “outlet malls” rather than use land conservatively require them to. It doesn’t mean the land they are going to is equally productive.

Well to bring it back around the the thread's topic. Inadequate intercity transit options are part of (maybe a small part) the problem we have where the GTAH conglomeration simply towers over the remaining urban municipalities in the province. Everything in this province is some massive thing in or around Toronto and everything else is basically poo dunk town. If we want to support more compact, and dense communities that are spread out over a larger area, part of that is having a way to travel within and between them without requiring a car.

 

[micheal_can]

I could not agree more with your posting. There are areas for growth in Ontario, but the wholesale cannibalism of Ontario Farmland (Region of Waterloo being the latest) calls for change. Change in planning, changes in economic growth policy, changes in the political makeup of some leadership.

When speaking of Ag in N.Ont, one difference off the top of my head will be the number of 'growing degree days'. A critical measure and one that farming in Northern Ontario does not favour, well hello climate change. Having said that there is much usable land in other areas of the Province that has been previously largely abandoned as well. One easy example of this is along the 401, in the general area of Cornwall, where large acreages are being 'reclaimed', they are being stripped of tree's or immature transitional growth to wooded areas, in favour of very large single field acreages, tiled, and suitable for the larger versions of farm equipment. Mostly for corn I believe. These are acreage systems that begin to mimic the very large factory farming operations that can be found in parts of south west Ontario, then west of Ontario in the Prairie provinces, then and south through Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Iowa etc

We often decry the loss of the 'family farm' and the growth of factory farming, I would say that there are a lot of mouths to feed, and as much as I love the mid-size operation, if I had the capital, then bigger (in this case) is more often than not, better.

As for a report on the possibilities of farming in Northern Ontario this report from Guelph in 2017, may shed some light on the subject - both potentials and challenges.

I almost hate to mention it, because when it come to rail we venture into dreamland far to often, but it would be nice to see the occasional grain train moving south in ONR colours, and some potash moving north. That would be a good sign of progress in this area.

Look more into ONR's history, back in the T&NO days when they hit New Liskeard area, the government did push for farming. Now, with the change in climate since then, this are getting to where some crops do well there when they didn't The problem is the governments ignore anywhere but the major centres. My hope is that the Northlander's return will spur some growth in the area.

Well to bring it back around the the thread's topic. Inadequate intercity transit options are part of (maybe a small part) the problem we have where the GTAH conglomeration simply towers over the remaining urban municipalities in the province. Everything in this province is some massive thing in or around Toronto and everything else is basically poo dunk town. If we want to support more compact, and dense communities that are spread out over a larger area, part of that is having a way to travel within and between them without requiring a car.

My hope is that with the return of the Northlander, the province will look at other places to connect by a daily rail passenger service to spur growth.

 

[lenaitch]

I could not agree more with your posting. There are areas for growth in Ontario, but the wholesale cannibalism of Ontario Farmland (Region of Waterloo being the latest) calls for change. Change in planning, changes in economic growth policy, changes in the political makeup of some leadership.

When speaking of Ag in N.Ont, one difference off the top of my head will be the number of 'growing degree days'. A critical measure and one that farming in Northern Ontario does not favour, well hello climate change. Having said that there is much usable land in other areas of the Province that has been previously largely abandoned as well. One easy example of this is along the 401, in the general area of Cornwall, where large acreages are being 'reclaimed', they are being stripped of tree's or immature transitional growth to wooded areas, in favour of very large single field acreages, tiled, and suitable for the larger versions of farm equipment. Mostly for corn I believe. These are acreage systems that begin to mimic the very large factory farming operations that can be found in parts of south west Ontario, then west of Ontario in the Prairie provinces, then and south through Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Iowa etc

We often decry the loss of the 'family farm' and the growth of factory farming, I would say that there are a lot of mouths to feed, and as much as I love the mid-size operation, if I had the capital, then bigger (in this case) is more often than not, better.

As for a report on the possibilities of farming in Northern Ontario this report from Guelph in 2017, may shed some light on the subject - both potentials and challenges.

I almost hate to mention it, because when it come to rail we venture into dreamland far to often, but it would be nice to see the occasional grain train moving south in ONR colours, and some potash moving north. That would be a good sign of progress in this area.

If I am allowed one more off-topic spin, the issues of growing season ("growing degree days") and distance to market have historically limited potential in the clay belts of n/e Ontario. Climate change has altered the season with crops like corn now appearing where it was previously not possible. Even at that, not all of the belts is arable. About half is still covered by trees (and clearing the land has its own issues) and much is poorly drained. Even with a longer season, if you can't get on the land with equipment it is of little value, and we are nowhere near a long enough season to permit a Holland Marsh-type economy.

There has been a small uptick in rail movements with transload sites in a ew places (basically a siding with an auger).

There are other pockets as well; the North Shore in the Thessalon area, around Thunder Bay and Dryden and small pockets east of Sudbury and south of North Bay. Thessalon and the Claybelt have seen a bit of resurgence, primarily from Mennonite families who have cashed in their southern lands and bought comparative bargoons in the north.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well to bring it back around the the thread's topic. Inadequate intercity transit options are part of (maybe a small part) the problem we have where the GTAH conglomeration simply towers over the remaining urban municipalities in the province. Everything in this province is some massive thing in or around Toronto and everything else is basically poo dunk town. If we want to support more compact, and dense communities that are spread out over a larger area, part of that is having a way to travel within and between them without requiring a car.

And that is not going to change. It's cheaper to build infrastructure in the GTA than elsewhere. Turning Sudbury into a 1M metro would probably bankrupt the province. Southern Ontario has some natural advantages and the GTA has even more, so it's no surprise that those places keep growing.

What the province should recognize is the massive in-built advantage of the Corridor and its ability to absorb more people. Instead of trying to grow North Bay and Timmins, let's try and grow Peterborough and Kingston to a million each. To this end, Ford should be talking a lot more about the need for VIA to improve (including HFR).

 

[Amare]

And that is not going to change. It's cheaper to build infrastructure in the GTA than elsewhere. Turning Sudbury into a 1M metro would probably bankrupt the province. Southern Ontario has some natural advantages and the GTA has even more, so it's no surprise that those places keep growing.

What the province should recognize is the massive in-built advantage of the Corridor and its ability to absorb more people. Instead of trying to grow North Bay and Timmins, let's try and grow Peterborough and Kingston to a million each. To this end, Ford should be talking a lot more about the need for VIA to improve (including HFR).

I've always believed that we should be growing our "secondary" cities if you will, and we cant keep just funneling and pumping growth in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. What the Feds should be focused on is making cities such as London, Windsor, Ottawa (just to name a few) more desirable places to live. Not that I would classify Sudbury as a secondary city, because it really isnt that. Part of that involves investing in reliable and frequent intra/inter-city transportation.

We've had various Federal governments who have failed at realizing this and they do the "easy" thing by pushing Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal to absorb the majority of the country's growth. The funny thing is, now it's having unintended consequences as the Feds are realizing that people are being pushed out to other cities such as Halifax and Kelowna which are struggling to absorb the rapid unexpected population increase.

VIA service needs to be improved substantially, but unfortunately the Feds these days have their heads in the gutter and prefer pushing out useless policies such as 1-time GST credit payments to the tune of ~$500 million. Not that the Trudeau government is the only one's at fault, Harper was way more useless when it came to VIA investments and exasperated the problems they have.

 

[Bordercollie]

And that is not going to change. It's cheaper to build infrastructure in the GTA than elsewhere. Turning Sudbury into a 1M metro would probably bankrupt the province. Southern Ontario has some natural advantages and the GTA has even more, so it's no surprise that those places keep growing.

What the province should recognize is the massive in-built advantage of the Corridor and its ability to absorb more people. Instead of trying to grow North Bay and Timmins, let's try and grow Peterborough and Kingston to a million each. To this end, Ford should be talking a lot more about the need for VIA to improve (including HFR).

Before we even start talking about Sudbury, and Timmins there is still lots of space in Pickering, Ajax and Oshawa to be developed. Especially south of the 401 which was industrial at one point and is now vacant. But what we need is not 5 bedroom single holmes, but transit oriented developments. Even if it's on demand transit, and when I say a community there needs to be a grocery store, restaurants, movie theater and schools within a reasonable distance. Not drive 6km to Wallmart and then 2km to Canadian Tire and then another 5km to the doctors office. This is the problem with suburbs today, you need to have a car to get to where you are going. We need to build self sustaining communities such as what is planned where the Yonge subway will end. I believe Innisfil is another example where the station will become the hub. I'm not sure who owns the station properties along the corridor but all of them are perfect candidates to build a community. Kingston, Fallowfield, Belleville, Cobourg. If you built a community on the station property it would make it easier for people from Cobourg to commute to Oshawa, and seeing the prices in the GTA it wouldn't surprise me if living in Oshawa becomes too expensive in the next ten years.

And although VIA is not a commuter based service, it needs to adapt to the current conditions. Station parking lots aren't generating any revenue, but development rights do.

This should be done for all GO stations as well. Look at Old Cummer GO station, post pandemic it's usually half empty. Build condos there so that people can commute to work from their doorstep. Seems like a no brainer.

 

[micheal_can]

And that is not going to change. It's cheaper to build infrastructure in the GTA than elsewhere. Turning Sudbury into a 1M metro would probably bankrupt the province. Southern Ontario has some natural advantages and the GTA has even more, so it's no surprise that those places keep growing.

What the province should recognize is the massive in-built advantage of the Corridor and its ability to absorb more people. Instead of trying to grow North Bay and Timmins, let's try and grow Peterborough and Kingston to a million each. To this end, Ford should be talking a lot more about the need for VIA to improve (including HFR).

It is cheaper partly because the province subsidizes those services going there. Always has been. Always will be.

I've always believed that we should be growing our "secondary" cities if you will, and we cant keep just funneling and pumping growth in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. What the Feds should be focused on is making cities such as London, Windsor, Ottawa (just to name a few) more desirable places to live. Not that I would classify Sudbury as a secondary city, because it really isnt that. Part of that involves investing in reliable and frequent intra/inter-city transportation.

We've had various Federal governments who have failed at realizing this and they do the "easy" thing by pushing Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal to absorb the majority of the country's growth. The funny thing is, now it's having unintended consequences as the Feds are realizing that people are being pushed out to other cities such as Halifax and Kelowna which are struggling to absorb the rapid unexpected population increase.

VIA service needs to be improved substantially, but unfortunately the Feds these days have their heads in the gutter and prefer pushing out useless policies such as 1-time GST credit payments to the tune of ~$500 million. Not that the Trudeau government is the only one's at fault, Harper was way more useless when it came to VIA investments and exasperated the problems they have.

My only hope is that we see an investment of the LDF that brings a higher number of rolling stock. Maybe then the services outside the Corridor will see something more than what exists now.