[nfitz]

Ornge isn't a rescue service; it is an ambulance service that flies. If a passenger needs medical transport, they still need to get them to a road or suitable clearing. Medical assistance is different than folks stuck on a train.

Of course.

Didn't you see the smiley? If I made a joke about Jesus, Moses, and Valentine Michael Smith walking into a bar - would you point out that Moses is dead?

The military is a poor idea, but none of Toronto-Montreal is more than a 12-hour drive from CFB Kingston; and none of Montreal to Quebec is more than a 12-hour drive from Longue-Point!

For the record, the major centres - Toronto, Kingston, Quebec City - along the corridor could spare 2 or 3 or 4 buses. The minor ones - say, Belleville or Drummondville - could not. Their fleets and operator bases are that small.

I've already apologized and said I'm on the wrong side of this. But for the record I've seen a lot more than 4 buses on an emergency TTC subway diversion. And I'd think 2-3 buses is more than enough to start shuttling people to the nearest ONRoute, community centre, or equivalent.

 

[crs1026]

Fair enough, but some are making the 'call the military' (or at least call the feds) case. "Local' is the key word. Aviation and maritime matters in federal waters is a JRCC/SAR responsibility. The words 'search' and 'rescue' imply the need for at least one to be required.


And they exist here as well, in Ontario mostly in the north but again, primarily for the search+rescue function. Services offered are consistent with the locale (bush search, mountain rescue, etc.). I suspect that slogging into a stranded train and either carrying supplies or escorting passengers out (all assuming walking distance) would be carried out by local formal emergency services. What to do with them when they are 'out' might fall to an existing partnership with the Red Cross, St. John's Ambulance, etc. Rescue implies removal from danger or distress. Where that line falls varies.

A couple decades ago I worked at a major industrial facility that had an emergency preparedness plan that envisaged (in a worst case scenario) evacuating a large urban area. There were protocols for requesting provincial emergency mobilization - and these involved filling out forms and getting approval first from various municipal authorities.

A similar requirement no doubt exists at the Federal level. The army does not respond to requests from single organizations. A provincial minister or the Premier would likely have to make the request, and federal authorities would then have to deliberate . That kind of request and response goes well beyond what would be useful or timely to respond to a stalled passenger train. It definitely falls on VIA and its host railways to have a plan and make that plan work within their own sphere of influence and with the most immediate agencies.

Edit: Or at least were more open about what they are trying/did try to do to alleviate the situation. Hearing a month or two later that they tried to rent buses is mitigating. That knowledge might have gaining them some sympathy, even from the passengers, if it had been communicated at the time.

The biggest gap in this event was indeed not so much a failure to respond logistically, as a failure to keep people in the loop. The glass was partly full in VIA's handling of the problem.

I think as a society we give Corporate Communicators far too much leeway to compose unhelpful messages and hold back actual information.

I did once experience an airline pilot who tried to explain what part of a jet engine was not working that caused us to u-turn off the taxiway and return to the gate... the explanation was not enlightening, but there was a lot greater confidence that the situation was being handled competently. There may be only so much the train service crew can do to explain to passengers what a particular mechanical problem is - but who the problem has been escalated to and how they will be responding, and how the most immediate and basic passenger needs will be met, is pretty reassuring.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Great, provided the incident is within reasonable driving distance from a Base. Do you think VIA can simply call the Base and ask for a bus and driver?

For this instance, there are bases in Montreal and Quebec City, We are not talking Hornepayne.

 

[Bordercollie]

For this instance, there are bases in Montreal and Quebec City, We are not talking Hornepayne.

What would it take to have spare crews available at TMC, MMC, Kingston, Ottawa, London and Quebec? But you would need a spare train set at each of those laying over until needed. A place to park it and shore power.

Seems like a lot for incidents that happen three times a year.

 

[dowlingm]

What would it take to have spare crews available at TMC, MMC, Kingston, Ottawa, London and Quebec? But you would need a spare train set at each of those laying over until needed. A place to park it and shore power.

Seems like a lot for incidents that happen three times a year.

Given that we have recently heard that Ottawa crew base is discontented due to under staffing, this seems to be more of an issue than finagling some power.

 

[lenaitch]

Didn't you see the smiley? If I made a joke about Jesus, Moses, and Valentine Michael Smith walking into a bar - would you point out that Moses is dead?

The military is a poor idea, but none of Toronto-Montreal is more than a 12-hour drive from CFB Kingston; and none of Montreal to Quebec is more than a 12-hour drive from Longue-Point!

I guess I did miss that. I'm old school and tend not to notice emojis.

The military is the wrong solution regardless of proximity.

A couple decades ago I worked at a major industrial facility that had an emergency preparedness plan that envisaged (in a worst case scenario) evacuating a large urban area. There were protocols for requesting provincial emergency mobilization - and these involved filling out forms and getting approval first from various municipal authorities.

Back in the '80s when I was an OPP supervisor, probably in a moment of sheer boredom (likely on the midnight shift), I read through the emergency evacuation and traffic diversion plan for Pickering Nuclear. I couldn't believe how laughingly unrealistic it was. It called for more vehicles, personnel and other resources than we could have assembled in a week. But I suppose they could tell the regulator they had a plan.

 

[micheal_can]

I guess I did miss that. I'm old school and tend not to notice emojis.

The military is the wrong solution regardless of proximity.

I mentioned them as a last resort They shouldn't be the first call, but they can be a call..

Back in the '80s when I was an OPP supervisor, probably in a moment of sheer boredom (likely on the midnight shift), I read through the emergency evacuation and traffic diversion plan for Pickering Nuclear. I couldn't believe how laughingly unrealistic it was. It called for more vehicles, personnel and other resources than we could have assembled in a week. But I suppose they could tell the regulator they had a plan.

Most emergency plans are made by people who do not execute them. I found that out in the navy real quick. On the shops, there are certain places where if a fire happens, or someone is a casualty, there is a SOP for it, but, but they tend not to field test as it is 'too hard'.So, one time I put one of their SOPs to the test. They could not fathom the time it took to get that particular space safe to enter to fight a fire. By then,the fake fire had spread.

All of this to say, Via has had several emergencies,and I have yet to see one that could be called a success. Things won't change till a fatality happens over it. I doubt a class action lawsuit would be enough to make the changes.

 

[Bordercollie]

I mentioned them as a last resort They shouldn't be the first call, but they can be a call..


Most emergency plans are made by people who do not execute them. I found that out in the navy real quick. On the shops, there are certain places where if a fire happens, or someone is a casualty, there is a SOP for it, but, but they tend not to field test as it is 'too hard'.So, one time I put one of their SOPs to the test. They could not fathom the time it took to get that particular space safe to enter to fight a fire. By then,the fake fire had spread.

All of this to say, Via has had several emergencies,and I have yet to see one that could be called a success. Things won't change till a fatality happens over it. I doubt a class action lawsuit would be enough to make the changes.

Having to testify infront of an inquiry is pretty embarrassing.

They should be accountable for actually implementing their emergency procedures.

How long did it take to marshall two P42's and and HEP car?

Who crewed it? How did they get permission from dispatch and given a track slot to rescue the stranded train?

So the train set was dead in tow to the next station?

How did they send another train to ferry the passengers to their destination?

 

[Urban Sky]

What would it take to have spare crews available at TMC, MMC, Kingston, Ottawa, London and Quebec? But you would need a spare train set at each of those laying over until needed. A place to park it and shore power.

Seems like a lot for incidents that happen three times a year.

And as I wrote on Groups.io, I fail to see for any of the four major incidents of stranded trains I recall in the last two years how stationing additonal tow trains at strategic locations would have made much difference:

…considering that the Kingston Sub was closed by stranded freight trains and fallen trees during the December 2022 snowstorm (same apparently goes for an April 2023 incident I just discovered) and that the Siemens trainsets were unable to get towed during the October 2023 incident and the most recent August 2024 incident, I’m not sure what difference the presence of an emergency locomotive in locations like Drummondville or Kingston would have made during these incidents…

Re: TRAN investigation of 622 incident continues

groups.io

 

[EnviroTO]

Clearly if rescue in a reasonable time frame is not possible, redundancy is. DMUs or dual engine consists are going to be required, food to last an extended period of time, greater washroom capacity and perhaps a janitor to travel with the train. VIA needs to create a better response plan and similar to other agencies their response needs to be tested, preferably at a random location along their service corridors.

 

[dowlingm]

the Siemens trainsets were unable to get towed during the October 2023 incident and the most recent August 2024 incident, I’m not sure what difference the presence of an emergency locomotive in locations like Drummondville or Kingston would have made during these incidents…

Summertime at the Station - August, 2024

On Friday, August 30 my good wife's good friend phoned to ask if she could drop by for a visit. I figured, well, here's three hours of chatt...

tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com

VIA's rescue train consist from VIA's Montreal Maintenance Centre was symbolled 308. The consist was 901-3478-913 (above) hauling Set 10 back to the MMC. The bidirectional units aid in hospital train operation, and the car between qualifies the movement as a 'train' therefore able to operate at higher speed.

 

[Bordercollie]

Summertime at the Station - August, 2024

On Friday, August 30 my good wife's good friend phoned to ask if she could drop by for a visit. I figured, well, here's three hours of chatt...

tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com

Would be helpful to have such a consist on standby at TMC, MMC, Quebec and Ottawa.

The issue is finding a crew at a moment's notice

 

[Urban Sky]

Clearly if rescue in a reasonable time frame is not possible, redundancy is.

Redundancy is always possible, but at what price?

DMUs

What TC/FRA-compliant DMUs exist on the market?

or dual engine consists are going to be required,

Sure, take the VIA schedule, cross out every second departure and, voila, you got the spare locomotives to run with redundant second locomotives!

food to last an extended period of time,

The problem with food and water rations is that given that most passengers bring sufficient supplies for the scheduled travel length, the food and water rations needed for a 4+ hour delay is a multiple of what would normally required for that same run.

greater washroom capacity

That’s indeed something to work on with the manufacturer, but the scope to increase retention tanks is unfortunately limited by countless other factors.

and perhaps a janitor to travel with the train.

Sure and once we are at it, a coroner would also cut multiple hours of delays in the event of a train hitting and fatally injuring a tresspasser. One really begins to wonder what other professionals would be useful to have on board in case of extremely rare events, but I’m sure we could fill an entire coach with them… /s

VIA needs to create a better response plan and similar to other agencies their response needs to be tested, preferably at a random location along their service corridors.

Agreed on this one, there should be drills to show insufficiencies, though difficult to pull off with a regular train full of revenue passengers, which would surely be thrilled to participate in an impromptu 4 hour-long delay training exercise…

Summertime at the Station - August, 2024

On Friday, August 30 my good wife's good friend phoned to ask if she could drop by for a visit. I figured, well, here's three hours of chatt...

tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com

It sometimes helps to read attentively, as I wrote “were unable to get towed during the October 2023 incident and the most recent August 2024 incident”.

The general capability of the Siemens sets to get towed by about any train with American couplers is well documented, but during these two events at least, the brakes refused to release themselves, as the train was about to get towed…

 

[micheal_can]

Today I was on the Budd car. There was a signalling issue that caused us to travel at about 20mph for over an hour. With the meets, and this, we were 2 hours late into Sudbury. The single best thing done was the crew let us know what was going on and why. They also gave us realistic timelines.

What does this matter with what happened in the Corridor? Professionalism. The way the crew acted towards the passengers on that train was deplorable. The way they acted on our train was wonderful. The Service Manager even brought around waters for everyone. Being late is bad. Having mechanic breakdowns is bad. Having unprofessional crew should not happen.

 

[dowlingm]

Today I was on the Budd car. There was a signalling issue that caused us to travel at about 20mph for over an hour. With the meets, and this, we were 2 hours late into Sudbury. The single best thing done was the crew let us know what was going on and why. They also gave us realistic timelines.

What does this matter with what happened in the Corridor? Professionalism. The way the crew acted towards the passengers on that train was deplorable. The way they acted on our train was wonderful. The Service Manager even brought around waters for everyone. Being late is bad. Having mechanic breakdowns is bad. Having unprofessional crew should not happen.

It’s helpful to know what’s going on and why. The VIA delegation were unwilling to provide root cause to the Commons despite the passage of time. Imagine how little the crew knew in real time.