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- Thread starter ehlow
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MisterF
Senior Member
The rail networks in most countries are publicly owned and/or controlled as I understand it. If the CN tracks had been kept public (like highways) the operations could have been privatized. Private freight companies could have paid to run their trains on public infrastructure and passenger trains could have been given much better priority. Instead we have the absurd situation where the infrastructure is privately owned and the government pays private companies to run government operated trains.
At this point nationalizing the network would probably not be feasible; the government doesn't even seem interested in giving Via some enabling legislation. Interests are too entrenched in the current system. Cobbling together its own line using underused and disused rights of way seems like Via's best hope. Hopefully this plan doesn't fall by the wayside like so many others.
At this point nationalizing the network would probably not be feasible; the government doesn't even seem interested in giving Via some enabling legislation. Interests are too entrenched in the current system. Cobbling together its own line using underused and disused rights of way seems like Via's best hope. Hopefully this plan doesn't fall by the wayside like so many others.
steveintoronto
Superstar
There is hope in that the demand underlines the fiscal viability of a *private* consortium creating a primarily passenger route encompassing most of the proposed HFR, and it would doubtless be electrified. Whether or not the Feds are savvy enough to allow VIA to be part of this consortium or not (VIA doesn't have the legal status to make the choice) remains to be seen.
Even Amtrak has vastly more legislative capacity than VIA, and Amtrak is hardly a shining example of a world class model. The Feds have kicked the B-Jesus out of VIA, continue to do so, and yet VIA continues to show record 'surpluses' ("Profit" for VIA is a verboten term legally).
Does anyone other than some of the rabid rail eccentrics on the Cdn rail scene think that this isn't being taken note of by savvy rail corporate investor types?
HFR in some form will happen. The question is whether the Feds have pissed in their own well to such an extent that no-one will want to join them, let alone drink it. Passenger rail *in some choice corridors* is not only viable, it's attractive for a number of reasons, one of them being to showcase some extant models of trainsets in North Am. As a secondary probability, the Ontario Gov't will bend over backwards to attract such a company to locate in Ontario (using extant facilities that will shortly be on the market) to allow for political expedience in allowing non-tendered building and running *with their own rolling stock un-tendered* on the rail line, and for it to be part and parcel of the Ontario High Speed proposal, albeit as "higher speed".
Let me ask this: 'Why *wouldn't* this happen? The question isn't so much whether this would be in conjunction with VIA (It may or may not, the offer will be made though) as it is a case of 'in conjunction with Metrolinx' in some form of inter-operation along with wholly owned private inter-city sections.
It's not only viable. It's *very* viable...and Desjardins-Siciliano would be the man to run it. VIA's loss...the Fed's loss. Ontario's gain. Quebec has stated "full support" very recently for HFR from Quebec City to Montreal and westwards. Quebec would stand to lose economically if she didn't join or *supplement* Ontario in establishing such a scheme.
I can foresee the Fed's being made a bid to include the profitable/logistically viable legs of VIA in Ontario in this scheme. As to how they react will remain to be seen.
You schmooze, you lose. I know that Garneau has been neutered, whether a muzzle is still necessary or not I don't know. He has been known to bark incessantly at times while yanking on his chain. What a pathetic life...
Garneau prods Air Canada to reduce noise on about 100 Airbus
He "prods" them. Trudeau won't even let him threaten the weight of regulations being applied. They not only neutered him, they removed his teeth too.
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crs1026
Superstar
I'm not sure that all of the criticism of the freight railways is valid.
East of Toronto - CN now allows 15 eastbound VIA trains between Toronto and Kingston on weekdays. That's pretty close to hourly headway. VIA now has two all-stops trains out of Toronto at evening rush hour, which is getting pretty close to a commuter service to the east of the GTA.
Belleville, for instance, is a bottleneck for CN because it is a crew change and block swapping terminal for their freights. It's unreasonable to expect there will be no such freight yards between Montreal and Toronto. I believe CN has ambitions to do the same at Coteau, although their plant is a bit limiting. At Belleville, one of the operational constraints is that there is only double track to the west of the station, mostly because the bridge over the river would be an expensive investment. Any freight switching has to occupy one main line, leaving only one for VIA. VIA trains converge on Belleville at least every half hour. From a bit of armchair observation of what actually happens at Belleville, I can't say that CN is being unreasonable in the priority it gives its own traffic - it's a bit of clever threading of trains, with both freight and passenger taking some hits. For significant periods of time, VIA has access to only one main line through town as freight will be occupying the other track.
Other than that, it's clear from watching the line that most of the delays are either due to a) VIA's equipment b) weather and c) the reality that freight and passenger trains will conflict and cause each other delays on a mixed line.
Overall, CN must have its reasons for being so accommodating on the Kingston line. It's certainly in contrast to the position it takes elsewhere (Halton, Western Transcon).
Here's a conspiracy theory for you. Ottawa is not keen on HFR, for reasons of cost (by now it may be apparent that the private investors are not going to bite) and also because the proposed routing is just not that ideal especially for serving the local communities. So, Ottawa quietly nudges CN and says, pull out all the stops and do the absolute best you can for VIA on the Kingston line. Only for a while, but mostly so we can see what cracks emerge and what investment we might actually have to make to improve the operation as a mixed service. And so we can see what the true realistic profit you would expect if we keep VIA on that line, and just how bad VIA is impacting your freight.
So, CN does that. Soon we will have some actual data on what VIA's full-out effort is capable of, and what it can't achieve, and how badly CN's freight is impacted. The full-out effort isn't sustainable, with an aging fleet and the ongoing operational obstacles. But maybe $1B of federal money would improve Belleville, and a couple other bottlenecks. Ottawa accepts that the fleet replacement is going to be its problem, as no private investor is going to solve that.
Or, perhaps Ottawa is just biding its time to see how Ontario makes out with its contracting out of GO. Perhaps a valid model is for CN to be the rail owner and system operator (shades of the UK) with several private entities vying for track time. One entity might be CN Freight, a second might be a contract operator assuming VIA's operations. Another might be..... GTAA?
Theories abound, and aren't worth much. In the meanwhile, VIA's level of service east of Toronto is damn impressive. How long until the equipment dies is the biggest worry.
- Paul
East of Toronto - CN now allows 15 eastbound VIA trains between Toronto and Kingston on weekdays. That's pretty close to hourly headway. VIA now has two all-stops trains out of Toronto at evening rush hour, which is getting pretty close to a commuter service to the east of the GTA.
Belleville, for instance, is a bottleneck for CN because it is a crew change and block swapping terminal for their freights. It's unreasonable to expect there will be no such freight yards between Montreal and Toronto. I believe CN has ambitions to do the same at Coteau, although their plant is a bit limiting. At Belleville, one of the operational constraints is that there is only double track to the west of the station, mostly because the bridge over the river would be an expensive investment. Any freight switching has to occupy one main line, leaving only one for VIA. VIA trains converge on Belleville at least every half hour. From a bit of armchair observation of what actually happens at Belleville, I can't say that CN is being unreasonable in the priority it gives its own traffic - it's a bit of clever threading of trains, with both freight and passenger taking some hits. For significant periods of time, VIA has access to only one main line through town as freight will be occupying the other track.
Other than that, it's clear from watching the line that most of the delays are either due to a) VIA's equipment b) weather and c) the reality that freight and passenger trains will conflict and cause each other delays on a mixed line.
Overall, CN must have its reasons for being so accommodating on the Kingston line. It's certainly in contrast to the position it takes elsewhere (Halton, Western Transcon).
Here's a conspiracy theory for you. Ottawa is not keen on HFR, for reasons of cost (by now it may be apparent that the private investors are not going to bite) and also because the proposed routing is just not that ideal especially for serving the local communities. So, Ottawa quietly nudges CN and says, pull out all the stops and do the absolute best you can for VIA on the Kingston line. Only for a while, but mostly so we can see what cracks emerge and what investment we might actually have to make to improve the operation as a mixed service. And so we can see what the true realistic profit you would expect if we keep VIA on that line, and just how bad VIA is impacting your freight.
So, CN does that. Soon we will have some actual data on what VIA's full-out effort is capable of, and what it can't achieve, and how badly CN's freight is impacted. The full-out effort isn't sustainable, with an aging fleet and the ongoing operational obstacles. But maybe $1B of federal money would improve Belleville, and a couple other bottlenecks. Ottawa accepts that the fleet replacement is going to be its problem, as no private investor is going to solve that.
Or, perhaps Ottawa is just biding its time to see how Ontario makes out with its contracting out of GO. Perhaps a valid model is for CN to be the rail owner and system operator (shades of the UK) with several private entities vying for track time. One entity might be CN Freight, a second might be a contract operator assuming VIA's operations. Another might be..... GTAA?
Theories abound, and aren't worth much. In the meanwhile, VIA's level of service east of Toronto is damn impressive. How long until the equipment dies is the biggest worry.
- Paul
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Just running out the door, so must be brief:
Article and info linked is dated, but it's my understanding, from looking at charts, that VIA punctuality has been sliding for decades. Oddly, surpluses have continued to increase for the past five years or so.
deserved) this idea is...pardon the pun...gaining a lot of traction. It's hardly unique to Ontario. It's been tried and trued in other advanced nations.
Some form of 'alliance' is inevitable between Ontario (ostensibly marshalled through Metrolinx and IO) and whatever form HFR takes. Quebec would be remiss not to have a piece of that 'action'...both to protect their manufacturing interests as well as *saving* vast sums in road infrastructure and improving Productivity.
The missing link, literally and otherwise, is the Feds. I'm at the point of not trusting anything they have to say on the matter, Infrastructure Bank or not.
Some excellent points Paul, must discuss later, but the Ontario Gov one is looking far more viable than the Fed one. Once the Deep Pockets have been flashed, sure as hell QP will be there to talk Higher Speed Turkey, and save their own clucking arses from promoting HSR as so far touted. It is doable, just not as true High Speed, and it has to be sold to *the majority of the population*, not just the touted HSR corridor.
Looking forward to further debate on this...
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...r-of-trains-were-late-in-2014-auditor-general
Article and info linked is dated, but it's my understanding, from looking at charts, that VIA punctuality has been sliding for decades. Oddly, surpluses have continued to increase for the past five years or so.
There is nothing to bite at this time, just a proposal. Deep Pockets are biding their time, and as it goes by, chances are less each moment that it will be with Gov't (other than to lease operations to, even that is open to question), and events are moving in their (Private) favour.
This is the ace in the hand. It's also highly indicative of how these things are moving. For all the flak the present QP Libs are getting (most of it
deserved) this idea is...pardon the pun...gaining a lot of traction. It's hardly unique to Ontario. It's been tried and trued in other advanced nations.
Some form of 'alliance' is inevitable between Ontario (ostensibly marshalled through Metrolinx and IO) and whatever form HFR takes. Quebec would be remiss not to have a piece of that 'action'...both to protect their manufacturing interests as well as *saving* vast sums in road infrastructure and improving Productivity.
The missing link, literally and otherwise, is the Feds. I'm at the point of not trusting anything they have to say on the matter, Infrastructure Bank or not.
Some excellent points Paul, must discuss later, but the Ontario Gov one is looking far more viable than the Fed one. Once the Deep Pockets have been flashed, sure as hell QP will be there to talk Higher Speed Turkey, and save their own clucking arses from promoting HSR as so far touted. It is doable, just not as true High Speed, and it has to be sold to *the majority of the population*, not just the touted HSR corridor.
Looking forward to further debate on this...
micheal_can
Senior Member
Meanwhile the only train between Vancouver and Toronto can be as much as 12 hours late.
crs1026
Superstar
Or more!
What's different is that, especially west of Winnipeg, CN has no excess capacity. None. The Canadian doesn't generate revenue anywhere near where what a 14,000 foot freight train does. Which train would you give the priority to, if you were CN? The Canadian is run when CN can make room for it, and not before.
As to capacity, CN puts more tonnage on its single track line in the West than it does on the Kingston Sub as a double track line. Absent VIA, CN would likely pull up some of the double track on the Kingston Sub. There must be a reason why CN keeps that extra double track in place. Certainly, they are not 'squeezing' VIA as they might be said to be doing west of Toronto.
- Paul
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
I've said this before, and I'll say this again. The VIA HFR project is a great political bullet, and would demonstrate the worth of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. I know that people are getting antsy here about the project, and a lack of details, but I wouldn't be. Here is why:
Edit: just found this article on a speech Minister Marc Garneau gave to a Montreal Rotary Club.
Canadian Astronaut / MP speaks to Rotary Club in Montreal West
"... The federal government favours a faster and high frequency VIA Rail passenger train service between Windsor and Quebec City. “maybe there will be a train every hour. And with with dedicated tracks, we would have more frequent on-time arrivals,” he said. Presently most of the train tracks belong to CN or CP, which both give priority to freight trains. Consequently, VIA Rail trains often have to pull off onto a siding..."
He could be speaking off the cuff, but that sounds pretty favourable to me.
- The project runs through 40+ ridings between Toronto and Quebec City. That's almost 12% of the 338 across the nation. That's a political win.
- For Ontario, major big ticket infrastructure projects like HSR and the Relief Line won't be shovel ready for a while. The Feds want/need a ground breaking ceremony for a big-ticket "transit" project before the 2019 election. This is that project.
- VIA HFR fits the bill of transit, green, and future oriented projects that the Feds want.
- I know for a fact that VIA has lobbied many MPs along the route via individual meetings to boost the project.
- Also, a friend worked at VIA Rail this summer as an intern, and worked on this project. It is further along planning-wise than you'd think.
- On the fleet side, I had a good chat with a VIA employee on a train ride a few weeks back. I don't know how accurate this is, but he said even the refurbished LRC cars only have around 5 years left. It has to do with their aluminum frames (aluminum is brittle and doesn't age well), and that Transport Canada won't let them operate longer than that for safety reasons. Enter the absolute need for a new fleet.
- Also consider that the Infrastructure Bank just started operating. They need attention-grabbing headlines, and VIA HFR does just that.
- I'd assume that the name HFR or "dedicated tracks" dies, and gets replaced with something like "VIA Fast/VIA Rapide".
- Remember the spurt of VIA HFR reporting that happened late summer 2017? I'd bet that was a trial ballon floated by the Feds, who purposely scooped reporters on details/maps. I could be wrong here, but thats my gut feeling.
- Also, the investment in infrastructure is for Canada is supposed to be ~$180 billion. Yes VIA HFR and a fleet isn't cheap, but it easily fits into this spending envelope, and arguable is one of the more "investor-friendly" projects.
Edit: just found this article on a speech Minister Marc Garneau gave to a Montreal Rotary Club.
Canadian Astronaut / MP speaks to Rotary Club in Montreal West
"... The federal government favours a faster and high frequency VIA Rail passenger train service between Windsor and Quebec City. “maybe there will be a train every hour. And with with dedicated tracks, we would have more frequent on-time arrivals,” he said. Presently most of the train tracks belong to CN or CP, which both give priority to freight trains. Consequently, VIA Rail trains often have to pull off onto a siding..."
He could be speaking off the cuff, but that sounds pretty favourable to me.
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rbt
Senior Member
Typo?
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Allandale25
Senior Member
Speaking of this corridor, this study was announced today for the Toronto to Peterborough portion:
(Crossposted here to the Peterborough Commuter Rail thread)
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
This comes as a surprise. Overall, I'd say this is a positive. A curious line in the release is "The Government of Canada is contributing up to $65,000 towards this project, which will build on economic and engineering work already completed". Could this already completed work be HFR-related? Maybe the extra $65,000 will go towards studying upgrades to the spur to Blue Mountain (not the ski resort), and towards examining if longer sidings are required for freight trains or yard upgrades in Havelock. Maybe the Feds are throwing CP a bone so they can subsequently implement HFR?
Allandale25
Senior Member
Maybe they are referring to the previous work done by Metrolinx to study the route and what upgrades between Toronto and Peterborough would be required?
Metrolinx's study is here: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/studies/Peterborough_Rail_Study.pdf
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
I hope that this shows that unlike Metrolinx and CP (in reference to the Milton Line), maybe the Feds and CP can have a viable working relationship. A Federal investment in HFR plus freight specific infrastructure like sidings specific means a better Peterborough Corridor for both CP and the Feds. HFR would require VIA to run in the CP corridor from Agincourt Yard to the Don Branch (there is space for a VIA specific track, with caveats) so maybe this is early signs of cooperation? Fingers are crossed.
Allandale25
Senior Member
They could also be referring to the "Preliminary Engineering Feasibility Release": https://web.archive.org/web/20160803132629/http://shiningwatersrailway.com/media.php
However, the site noted: "Completed and submitted to Transport Canada and the MTO Aug. 8th, 2014. Permission has not been received to release the Document to the public domain."
There was also an economic study apparently done: https://connectionnewspaper.wordpre...ay-receives-results-of-economic-impact-study/
However, the site noted: "Completed and submitted to Transport Canada and the MTO Aug. 8th, 2014. Permission has not been received to release the Document to the public domain."
There was also an economic study apparently done: https://connectionnewspaper.wordpre...ay-receives-results-of-economic-impact-study/