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A key piece of context is missing with that tweet when talking about HFR. And it's on purpose. Even though the clue is in the tweet itself.

A key piece of context is missing, and its from this tweet.

Its not VIA that is stopping a 3:59 train to exist like it did in 1970. Its CN.

Via isnt choosing a 4 billion dollar route for the lols. Or because they have an attraction to curvy rails or something. If this option existed, they would do it.

Hint: it doesnt exist.
 
Beyond questions of reliability, it is worth noting that HFR plans to run diesel trains on a very curvy and slow alignment. Serving Peterborough isn't worth the crazy diversion and slow speed this service will have to make.

Even in this golden era of trains, for Montreal-Toronto, there were:
  • 2 Turbo trains a day (except Saturdays), which took 3:59 and 4:04 depending if it was express or stopped in Dorval,
  • 2 Rapido trains a day (plus a holiday special), which took 4:59 with stops in Dorval and Guildwood,
  • 2 stopping trains a day, which took 5:59 and 5:45, and
  • 1 overnight train, which took 7:35
That is only 7 trains a day (possibly 8 on holidays), with most of the trains having similar if not slower travel times than the HFR trains will have.

For Ottawa-Toronto, there were:
  • 2 stopping trains a day, which took 5:44 and 4:59, and
  • 1 overnight train 6 days a week, which took 7:35
For a grand total of 3 trains a day, with travel times significantly higher than those of HFR.

That sounds much better than having 15 trains a day on both routes (not to mention Montreal-Ottawa). :rolleyes:
 
A key piece of context is missing with that tweet when talking about HFR. And it's on purpose. Even though the clue is in the tweet itself.
There's a world of difference between the twice-daily Turbo/LRC "cannonball runs" in 3h59 or 4h15 and reliably getting 4h40 every hour all day, plus a vastly improved 3h15 for Toronto to/from Ottawa, again every hour. There's also a huge time and "frequency cost of time" difference for Montreal-Quebec City and Ottawa-Quebec City, so much so that it might even hold up if the CDPQ won't play nicely and allow electrified, PTC/ATO controlled, intercity trains to share the tunnel they annexed.

The big "what-ifs" are whether Transport Canada will back the promises made to Kingston, Belleville, Drummondville, etc of continued service with reasonable frequency, and back VIA in negotiating track access to the remaining shared track segments so the train doesn't end up sitting for half an hour at Agincourt or Dorion waiting for two miles of intermodal cans to pass.

What makes it really hard to give the project an emphatic "yes" is that the JPO and Transport Canada could answer key questions like access to the tunnel... but they aren't telling! Many thanks to @Urban Sky for sharing his expertise and unofficial analysis here, which helps to answer many questions.

There are further savings in actual journey time - rather than platform to platform time - that could be achieved by reconfiguring boarding at Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal so you don't have to show up 30 minutes prior to departure, and sorting out services to/from SW Ontario so that connections though Toronto are a European-style 15 minutes, not 1h15. Those saving are much easier to achieve than shaving another 15 or 30 minutes off platform to platform time.
 
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I am anti-HFR. As a concept, it is outdated from the very start and isn't worth the money.
I said HSR, because that's what this group is advocating for. What are you advocating for?
 
A key piece of context is missing, and its from this tweet.

Its not VIA that is stopping a 3:59 train to exist like it did in 1970. Its CN.

Via isnt choosing a 4 billion dollar route for the lols. Or because they have an attraction to curvy rails or something. If this option existed, they would do it.

Hint: it doesnt exist.

That's not what I was referring to. What I was referring to was a certain acronym in the tweet that the tweet author purposefully ignored.
 
^The reason that Turbo performed much better in 1970 is because CN built sidings that were long enough for freight trains every 20-30 miles between Oshawa and Dorval. Those sidings were long enough for the trains of the day, which were maybe 5000 feet long. Freight timing was much less precise, so those pull-off delays were less of a concern. And, as noted, there was a much lower frequency overall of passenger trains, so a freight train was only delayed once or twice by yielding to overtaking Turbos.

These days, freight trains are 14,000 feet long and train handling is much more complicated. When (as inevitably happens) a VIA train ends up following on the tail of a freight on the Kingston line, it can be 50 miles or more before there is clear track to let VIA cross over and overtake the freight. Or, an opposing VIA has to be held so the overtaking train can run around the freight. This is where the reliability takes a hit.

It would take a set of much longer sidings to replicate that approach today. The sidings would have to be long enough for freights to enter them without slowing down... freights would only decelerate after fully clearing the main line, and their deceleration would have to be less aggressive. We're now talking 5-8 miles of siding every 20 miles. And, if we assume the next VIA is only an hour behind, there will have to be another siding not much farther up the line so that the freight can sprint to its next pull-off to let that following passenger train by. We can't ask CN to lower the velocity of its freights by having them pull off over again and again to let VIA go by.

If the freight is "on hours", ie the crew will time out before the next crew change point, or, if the freight is close to its cutoff time for whatever it is hauling to connect onto other trains at the next freight hub, CN will adamantly avoid impeding the freight train. Those missed connections may add a full day to delivery time for a freight shipment. Again, one can't ask CN to make that level of accommodation.

This isn't to say that the Kingston line couldn't be built to resolve this, but it would be costly. I have to assume that VIA has costed that option against HFR, in some ballpark way at least. HFR will cost out as less, and the increment is probably a couple of billions.

A fully 3-track Kingston line that costs HFR+$2B might be a better value for money than HFR in many ways. I'm partial to that alternative. I really don't like the erosion of the Montreal-Toronto travel time.... but I don't have the $2B to chip in to level the options.

I wonder whether, if VIA shifts its primary trains to HFR, could CN allow 2-3 Turbo-like Toronto-Montreal schedules a day, so that the most time sensitive Toronto-Montreal passengers have options for a fast ride, perhaps at a premium fare.

That would come with tradeoffs in how much local service CN would allow on the line, and I'm not keen to see that market eroded either, but some affordable level of investment might make more of that doable.

Perhaps the "incremental" upgrades to the Havelock line that are being suggested for later years should be weighted against the business case for incremental upgrades to the Kingston line. The cost of say twenty miles of double-tracking or curve reduction on the Havelock line might buy thirty or forty miles of triple track on the Kingston line, where there is less rock and swamp to overcome. Or even new line altogether to gradually get VIA off CN.

- Paul
 
A fully 3-track Kingston line that costs HFR+$2B might be a better value for money than HFR in many ways. I'm partial to that alternative. I really don't like the erosion of the Montreal-Toronto travel time.... but I don't have the $2B to chip in to level the options.

An additional $2B spent on HFR would probably get Toronto-Montreal much closer to 4 hrs anyway. So why spend all that on infrastructure that VIA can't control?
 
In all honesty though, speed will for sure be a key determining factor on success. With car culture so prevalent, apart from relibility, there must be a benifit for going by rail Remember if your were to travel to Montreal, you must include from the train station to the final desitination (hotel, conference centre) which can add an hour to the trip. If HFR only gives a 15 min boost in travel times, it will not sell well. The general public doesnt care if the train is frequent or reliable. Most of them will ride the train once a year or 2 years. If its not fast and cant offset the travel times theres no point. In todays standard, under 4hrs by rail
should be standard. IIRC there was a presentation a couple years ago stating their goal of 445, which is WAY too low and unacceptable for 21st century intercity travel thats only about 550km. In order for HFR/HSR to be successful in the long term, it MUST beat a car from station to destination within DT montreal if theyre going to charge more per ticket than a tank of gas/battery charge. .
 
An additional $2B spent on HFR would probably get Toronto-Montreal much closer to 4 hrs anyway. So why spend all that on infrastructure that VIA can't control?

That's why I'd say, build new track. The cost of building up in the Shield is the unknown that I fear greatly.

- Paul
 
That's why I'd say, build new track. The cost of building up in the Shield is the unknown that I fear greatly.

- Paul

I fear that far less than spending $6B only to have CN screw VIA again. At what point do we stop making the same mistake over and over again?

The good part about the Havelock Corridor is that a path is already built. The uncertainty comes from new portions or corridors being built, not so much for relaying track or upgrading an existing corridor. We can manage those upgrading costs later by simply building as budgets allow.

Also, something to consider. $2B could be enough to basically upgrade the Ottawa-Coteau stretch to HSR standards. That isn't the Canadian Shield. And could get Ottawa-Montreal down to 75 mins or less. Makes that route more commutable. Cuts Toronto-Montreal travel times too.
 
IIRC there was a presentation a couple years ago stating their goal of 445, which is WAY too low and unacceptable for 21st century intercity travel thats only about 550km. In order for HFR/HSR to be successful in the long term, it MUST beat a car from station to destination within DT montreal if theyre going to charge more per ticket than a tank of gas/battery charge. .

And what would ridership be at the cost of that ticket, given that the government is trying not to subsidize rail travel?

There are plenty of folks who say they'd take the train if it's faster. But they would want a ticket price lower than today. That's not a tenable proposition without substantial subsidies.

A Tokyo-Osaka Shinkansen ticket is about ¥14 000. About CA$ 160. That is one-way. Toronto-Montreal is actually 10% longer. But let's use this as a corollary. How many people would be willing to pay $320 round trip Toronto-Montreal?

This would work out about as well as the Union-Pearson Express. Everybody said they would use an airport train if it was built. They priced it lower than an airport limo ride and included a TTC fare in there. What happened? No ridership and the government had to take tens of millions in losses and cut fares by more than half (from $27.50 to $12). So we should all be skeptical when people say HSR has ridership, if it's built. HFR is a good, lower capital test of commitment. We'll see how much support there is for rail travel and the price sensitivity of riders. Plans can be made from there.
 
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In all honesty though, speed will for sure be a key determining factor on success. With car culture so prevalent, apart from relibility, there must be a benifit for going by rail Remember if your were to travel to Montreal, you must include from the train station to the final desitination (hotel, conference centre) which can add an hour to the trip. If HFR only gives a 15 min boost in travel times, it will not sell well. The general public doesnt care if the train is frequent or reliable. Most of them will ride the train once a year or 2 years. If its not fast and cant offset the travel times theres no point. In todays standard, under 4hrs by rail
should be standard. IIRC there was a presentation a couple years ago stating their goal of 445, which is WAY too low and unacceptable for 21st century intercity travel thats only about 550km. In order for HFR/HSR to be successful in the long term, it MUST beat a car from station to destination within DT montreal if theyre going to charge more per ticket than a tank of gas/battery charge. .

I would argue that time is more important than speed. Time spent driving is largely wasted and/or stressful. Time spent on a train can be productive and/or relaxing, so even if the entire trip takes a bit longer.

Also, don't forget that for road trips, the time Google Maps says isn't necessarily the actual door to door travel time. It won't take into account the time you spend getting food, fuel and beverages as well as taking bio breaks. None of those need to be added to train travel time. The improved reliability of HFR will mean that your travel time will also be less likely to be affected by traffic or poor weather than if driving.
 

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