rbt
Senior Member
Detailed design and engineering for transit projects is often around 10% of the cost.
Purchasing the corridor from CP also needs to be completed and won't be free.
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
Detailed design and engineering for transit projects is often around 10% of the cost.
Purchasing the corridor from CP also needs to be completed and won't be free.
OntarioOnTheMove
New Member
kEiThZ
Superstar
This is one of those "technically correct" posts.
crs1026
Superstar
Seems odd that they would structure HFR such that Ottawa funds the design from general revenue but requires build-operate from CIB. Also seems odd that they would insert a purchase price in a public document - unless the number has already been agreed to. And, how would the purchase price be spread over six years? It would have to be an up-front expense, so VIA can occupy and begin construction.
- Paul
rbt
Senior Member
I think VIA is looking for more of an investor (bonds or debt?) rather than an entity to execute on their behalf like REM. That means they'll need a full design and business plan upfront. I expect more traditional tenders.
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Towered
Senior Member
I haven't been following this thread much - I'm guessing "high frequency rail" is just a watered down "high speed rail", right?
Allandale25
Senior Member
^ Details on VIA"s website here. It's not just a speed question. Dedicate tracks, reliability, frequency.
corpo.viarail.ca
High Frequency Rail | VIA Rail
We are expanding our current service offering with the introduction of the High Frequency Rail (HFR) in the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor. Discover the project's details.
nfitz
Superstar
They do describe the items in the budget, and it's quite clear from the description that that isn't the case!
It's not even that. It's simply more frequent trains, which aren't necessarily any faster than now. And possibly slower in some cases - certainly slower than the under 4 hour Montreal-Toronto service that VIA has run from time-to-time since the 1970s.
It also might include some different alignments - such as Ottawa-Toronto through Peterborough rather than Kingston. And Toronto-Montreal through Ottawa rather than Kingston. And Quebec City to Montreal through Trois-Rivieres.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
$500 million can buy things like upgrade stations, track upgrades on the part of the corridor that already exist (Ottawa to Smiths Falls, for example), back end upgrades, corridor purchases, preliminary design & utility relocations, etc.
We'll have to see more details to know. The number is likely based on something more substantial, we will have to wait for that to be released to know.
We'll have to see more details to know. The number is likely based on something more substantial, we will have to wait for that to be released to know.
Frank_Lee
New Member
It could also buy more rolling stock if the JPO found they would need to run a lot of trains for the business case to work.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
Gotta read between the lines. And not even very finely.
It is $4.4 million to get it to cabinet decision day. And $491.2 million for the subsidy.
"for infrastructure investments that would support the overall success of the high frequency rail project"
That is the subsidy. Without the subsidy the project wouldn't be successful.
Sounds like Finance most certainly had a budget letter with the exact subsidy need in their hands.
kEiThZ
Superstar
That's the optimistic interpretation. And I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong.
But I'm really, really, really disappointed right now. Because we're here trying to find optimism in reading between the lines in a budget document instead of discussing a commitment to launch this.
This government will have doubled the national debt in a decade in power and couldn't find $4B to get HFR built? For all that talk about concern about climate change, they have consistently put social spending ahead of infrastructure and it's now getting ridiculous that they will happily announce $30B in deficit financed child care, but can't commit to a rail line in the busiest intercity corridor in the country?
If they don't have a launch before the election, I'm staying home. There's no point.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Let’s not lose track of the fact that the budget includes half a billion for HFR infrastructure. It’s not the announcement we wanted, but it’s a chunk of change. On the $491 million, here are some ideas for infrastructure it could fund.
1) If the line uses the Stouffville line, VIA might be funding the Scarborough Jct fly under, which Metrolinx/Verster mysteriously now says it doesn’t need. My thought is that Metrolinx wants VIA to pay the $140 million for it.
2) VIA might go ahead and buy the Havelock Sub from CP. I can’t imagine it would be that expensive though, and if CP’s odd freight train can still run, they’d sell it. Would let VIA be able to start some upgrades.
3) I have a running theory that VIA will move its Toronto Union platforms to the new ones south of the station so GO can use the current VIA ones. Metrolinx had a strange high floor stub track rendering in their Union Station Enhancement Project public consultation with a high floor platform on the east of the station. Maybe VIA is pitching into this project too? Image below. Just some theories, I’d love to hear people’s takes.
Allandale25
Senior Member
^ Maybe a chunk of the $491 million is the "Sharbot Lake bypass." Or building a more modern swing bridge in Peterborough that doesn't have to be manually operated.
There's also the need to get to the north side of the CP Belleville Sub (when heading east).
Plus @reaperexpress ' idea here:
Post in thread 'GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)' https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...-projects-metrolinx-various.9023/post-1678705
So the speculative list of where the $491 million could go for the key words of reducing "bottlenecks, improve fluidity and connectivity"
There's also the need to get to the north side of the CP Belleville Sub (when heading east).
Plus @reaperexpress ' idea here:
Post in thread 'GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)' https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...-projects-metrolinx-various.9023/post-1678705
So the speculative list of where the $491 million could go for the key words of reducing "bottlenecks, improve fluidity and connectivity"
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crs1026
Superstar
You have to admit, though, that for those of us who don't know the secret signs and black-art rituals of how Ottawa transacts decisions, this process sure looks like the approval process is standing on its head.
If, as you suggest, the line item in today's budget is nothing more than a top-up aka capital subsidy in advance of approving HFR (because the CIB/JPO report found that the project can't service the full investment that the project requires), then Ottawa is booking a subsidy for a program that hasn't been approved at Cabinet yet, and/or that it doesn't see fit to voice support for.
And, if in fact that top-up is needed, it's a rebuttal of the whole business case, which was said to have legs as a subsidy free program.
Like @kEiThZ I hope I'm wrong, but in an environment where a similar priced COVID buyout for Air Canada was conceived and approved in under a year (and, in so doing, raised harsh criticism for taking too long) it's hard to imagine what additional twists and turns ought to be needed to vet HFR.... and it's hard to believe that everything that is being "studied" and "explored" along the way doesn't have a few self evident truths that don't need validation. Only VIA seems to have to count angels on the head of a pin, and then list all their names, and then provide their CV's, and then ask the RCMP to give each angel a security clearance....and only VIA has to whisper their names and pretend there aren't any angels, or even a pin, in the name of remaining '"coy".
The six-year phasing of this expense is curious, too. Will the project take that long to build? That's a change to the story.
My conspiracy theory is that the McKenna/Sabia crowd may have won the day, in the sense of arguing "let's not build HFR, let's just drag our heels and wait until HSR might be sellable". The money to be spent might well just be some slim pickings from VIA FAST, with the objective of pacifying CN, easing the conflict on the Lakeshore line for a few years, and maybe roughing in a few obvious improvements that will bridge to HSR.
Hopefully VIA will make some statement about how it intends to apply the funds, and again, I hope I'm wrong....but few government programs roll out in this strange way.
- Paul