Bordercollie
Senior Member
Will CP retain the right to use the Havelock sub even after HFR is built?
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
DirectionNorth
Active Member
I think that CP will insist on using the sub during negotiations, with certain slots given to them. I would also think that these would be late-night slots.
nfitz
Superstar
An interesting question is whether they'd want rights to use Havelock to Smiths Falls, if it got reopened.
robmausser
Senior Member
An important note to make that is implied in your post but not necessarily clear for those in the back: because VIA owns the track, unless there is some kind of mechanical failure of a CP train, VIA trains will always get priority, regardless of time of day. But like you said it would most likely be late night after VIA has gone to sleep. Because its not really possible to find a timeslot for a freight train between frequent service.
In other words, whether freight is allowed or not, it should not impede the service of passenger trains. Which is far from what can be said on the CN line.
DirectionNorth
Active Member
In my opinion, any freight from Havelock to Smith Falls would only be occasional, and again, during late-nights only. My belief is that CP will ask for slots during the negotiations for the sale of the existing Havelock sub, therefore, that does not apply to the section east of there.
lenaitch
Senior Member
CP will obviously need slots west of Havelock so long as revenue traffic is there. East of there, I can see CP being interested only as an emergency 'relief valve' should there be an issue with their existing mainline, providing the price is right.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
Isn't there one train daily to Havelock from Toronto except Sunday?
At least the train will be faster. It won't be a 12 hour round trip.
And I guess they would need to retain local switching in Peterborough also.
Are there any customer's between Toronto and havelock?
lenaitch
Senior Member
I don't think it is daily but others likely know better. Cavan Agri Services - just west of P'boro - has a rail connection but it's been a while since I've over that way to know if it is still active.
ShonTron
Moderator
CP took over quite a bit of CN’s track in Peterborough in 1990 when CN abandoned Uxbridge to Peterborough (the last major customer, in Lindsay, was closing around that time) but since then, most customers closed or switched to trucks.
All the ex-CN spurs in Peterborough were eventually removed by CP (many of which are now trails), with only Quaker Oats left as a customer of any significance. I’m not even sure if they still get rail deliveries anymore.
All the ex-CN spurs in Peterborough were eventually removed by CP (many of which are now trails), with only Quaker Oats left as a customer of any significance. I’m not even sure if they still get rail deliveries anymore.
DirectionNorth
Active Member
I counted 4-6 customers along the line from Toronto to Havelock and Blue Mountain, using a satellite map.
I believe that Quaker Oats still uses rail, I found this: Source, and that implies they are still using trains.
I could not find anything for Agri.
I have also heard that there are 3 weekly trains (each direction) along this line, but I cannot remember where I heard that and cannot find a source.
roger1818
Senior Member
In Metrolinx's Peterborough Rail Study, it says that at the time (2010) CP "operates a single train three times a week." I would assume that this hasn't changed.
I should add, things have changed significantly since this study was performed. At the time the CP Toronto (Agincourt) Freight Yard was significantly busier, and Metrolinx needed to find a way around it. In 2012, Hunter Harrison mandated the hump and classification yard be closed. As a result, there is now plenty of room for VIA to build their own track through the yard without having to detour around it.
ManyQuestions
Active Member
I do agree that the Vancouver-Seattle would benefit greatly from from increased frequency, the only reason I didn't include it is that it, like all other transborder routes, is currently operated by Amtrak. These routes could certainly still benefit from service improvements, one of the easiest of which would be extending the New York-St. Albans Amtrak route up to Montreal.
Of course, these potential improvements are at most secondary to VIA HFR. Any expansions from the central corridor would benefit significantly from effective interchanges with the HFR core.
roger1818
Senior Member
Getting off topic, but Amtrak's Vermonter was previously named the Montrealer when it traveled to Montreal, but Amtrak cut the route short (and changed names) in 1995. The Montrealer operated as an overnight train, but from day 1, the Vermonter operated as a daytime train. Initially there was connecting bus service to Montreal, but it was later discontinued. From what I have heard, the preclearance facilities in Central Station won't open until there is a second train to the USA (most likely the Montrealer).
ManyQuestions
Active Member
I haven't noticed or heard of any work going on to construct new preclearance facilities, but I suppose that it could go in the space that has recently been vacated by Staples closing their store in the station. Could be an interesting development if station renovations are incorporated into the HFR project.
roger1818
Senior Member
No, the plan is to have it at the other end of the station, on track 23. Here is the plan for the facility:
