[crs1026]

It would be quite rational to propose enforced co-production, but I can't see Ottawa stepping into this one right now, and certainly not just to solve something that isn't a problem (yet) in Southern Ontario.

The time may come when various agendas come together and the concept of transitioning to a publicly-owned track network with private operators may be up for discussion.

But I can't see it happening any time soon. And when it does, much bigger issues will be at the forefront.

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

The Windsor to Woodstock section would actually be both cheap and very easy to construct IF Ottawa grabs a pair and puts CN & CP in their place.

VIA already owns the entire section from Windsor to Chatham and east of Chatham there are 2 direct lines to London and both run north of the 401. One owned by CN & the other by CP. The ridiculous thing is that they run parallel to each other but are only about 3 km apart. Ottawa should step in, offer them a cool billion and tell them to hand over one of the lines to VIA using ultimate domain and make them share their tracks. The exact same thing occurs east of London where the tracks both converge at Woodstock but are about 10km apart.

I don't think Ottawa will spend untold billions on a line that is not zero emissions so that cancels out high speed diesel. I think they will probably go for catenary/battery technology. Even the Japanese Shinkansen trains have battery power. They can go only a maximum of 40km but have them as a back-up system in case of power outages {usually due to earthquakes} allowing the trains to continue to the next small station. They also have them for usage in longer tunnels where they are very inaccessible by repair vehicles often not even close to a major road. This would be very analogous to the section roughly between Peterborough and Smith Falls where some of the track is basically completely inaccessible. and hence repairs to electrical supply would be very time consuming and could shut down the system for potentially days.

Due to the relatively small length that the trains can run on battery-only, the battery system itself is quite small meaning the trains lose very little de/acceleration and top speeds due to the weight of the batteries.

The CN line to Windsor isn't actually their mainline either. Their mainline goes through Sarnia to Chicago.

I would be willing to bet that CN would even be cool to sell their line to HFR and simply have priority to passenger rail and run freight inbetween/at night.

London to Toronto could be done on the GEXR line for the same reason. CN would be relatively happy to sell it for the right price, as long as they could run the odd train on it. It would also mean HFR runs through the Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge area, as well as have a stop at Pearson. Metrolinx is pretty reasonable with allowing other passenger rail on their lines (KW-Toronto)

 

[cplchanb]

Quebec City/Toronto high-frequency rail link will be 90% electric: Via CEO

The High-Frequency Rail project is one that Via has been championing for several years, and aims to build dedicated tracks within the Quebec City-Toronto corridor.

montrealgazette.com

why not just electrify the remaining 10% ? It would simplify train operations and rolling stock complexities since they dont need to be bimode. Its a waste of money for all the extra infrastructure and equipment just for a tiny fraction of the line.

 

[robmausser]

why not just electrify the remaining 10% ? It would simplify train operations and rolling stock complexities since they dont need to be bimode. Its a waste of money for all the extra infrastructure and equipment just for a tiny fraction of the line.

Can't. The 10% is private CN/CP lines and they have said outright no to electrification on their lines. Whether the feds pay for it or not. They won't even allow dedicated tracks in their ROW that are electrified.

 

[Allandale25]

why not just electrify the remaining 10% ? It would simplify train operations and rolling stock complexities since they dont need to be bimode. Its a waste of money for all the extra infrastructure and equipment just for a tiny fraction of the line.

Probably because of challenges like the approach to/from Union Station. It is probably going to use the Havelock Sub and then the Belleville Sub through Agincourt to get to/from the Stouffville Line. CP probably doesn't want catenary on that section.

 

[crs1026]

I'm not willing to declare the "use-battery-to-bridge-the-10% strategy" as real, yet. It's plausible, and may be very compelling to the bureaucrats who appreciate the problem HFR faces but aren't willing to prod CP or CN in any meaningful way. Just like the hydrogen rabbit hole was compelling to Del Duca when he realised GO couldn't get some places without either diesel or something-other-than-wires.

I just wonder if it's a mature technology that is prudent and procurable, thats all. Some day, maybe.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

The Siemens fleet is bimodal. I suspect any HFR service launch will simply fit catenary on top and use diesel for the last 10%. The debate of what to do with the last 10% is probably only relevant to some future Venture fleet replacement after 2060.

The only way there's a new fleet is if HFR actually substantially morphs into HSR lite with the capacity to support substantially higher sustained speeds for large portions. That's highly unlikely, to need a new fleet, given that the Venture fleet is rated till 201 kph.

 

[robmausser]

The Siemens fleet is bimodal. I suspect any HFR service launch will simply fit catenary on top and use diesel for the last 10%. The debate of what to do with the last 10% is probably only relevant to some future Venture fleet replacement after 2060.

The only way there's a new fleet is if HFR actually substantially morphs into HSR lite with the capacity to support substantially higher sustained speeds for large portions. That's highly unlikely, to need a new fleet, given that the Venture fleet is rated till 201 kph.

Well, if the request to do 300kmh average speed is taken seriously, then there'd need to be a new fleet.

I believe there isn't enough fleet of the Ventures to service the existing corridor and the HFR routing. It really is up to the private consortium that is picked to choose the fleet.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well, if the request to do 300kmh average speed is taken seriously, then there'd need to be a new fleet.

At that point, we're talking full high speed rail. If that happens, everything we know about HFR is useless. It's a whole different project.

I believe there isn't enough fleet of the Ventures to service the existing corridor and the HFR routing. It really is up to the private consortium that is picked to choose the fleet.

The Venture fleet was sized for current Corridor demand with some growth. Move a chunk of the fleet to a dedicated corridor and they can become substantially more efficient. Think of how much more a trainset and crew can do with an average speed of 130 kph vs. 100 kph today. With those efficiencies, they'd probably only need a small supplemental order to have enough for Corridor West, HFR and Kingston hub services. I suspect something on the order of 10-30% of the current Venture order.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Well, if the request to do 300kmh average speed is taken seriously, then there'd need to be a new fleet.

I believe there isn't enough fleet of the Ventures to service the existing corridor and the HFR routing. It really is up to the private consortium that is picked to choose the fleet.

what request? All I have ever seen is 200km/h as the top speed, which is in itself higher than the original plan for 177km/h.

 

[robmausser]

what request? All I have ever seen is 200km/h as the top speed, which is in itself higher than the original plan for 177km/h.

Posted today at 8am. Translated article below from here.

"The first phase will connect Quebec and Toronto, with stops in Trois-Rivières, Montreal, Ottawa and Peterborough. The second phase will connect Toronto and the city of Windsor. The Minister challenges companies to come up with a project that would allow the train to reach a cruising speed of 300 km/h."

I truly believe the feds are piling on the requests to ensure this project goes nowhere, to make it so expensive and unfeasible it gets canned.

 

[just east of the creek]

"The first phase will connect Quebec and Toronto, with stops in Trois-Rivières, Montreal, Ottawa and Peterborough. The second phase will connect Toronto and the city of Windsor. The Minister challenges companies to come up with a project that would allow the train to reach a cruising speed of 300 km/h."

I truly believe the feds are piling on the requests to ensure this project goes nowhere, to make it so expensive and unfeasible it gets canned.

I agree. And I do not understand the logic of abandoning the existing routes from Quebec City / Montreal / Brockville/ Kingston/Toronto to some sort of degraded level of service from what exists now. Peterborough could easily be a regional GO Transit connection (as can be KW, and even Brantford). The more I read about this 'project' the more I agree it is set up to fail. They seem to be envisioning another HS2 concept, and no where do I see any numbers that make that concept work.

 

[kEiThZ]

"The first phase will connect Quebec and Toronto, with stops in Trois-Rivières, Montreal, Ottawa and Peterborough. The second phase will connect Toronto and the city of Windsor. The Minister challenges companies to come up with a project that would allow the train to reach a cruising speed of 300 km/h."

He can say all kinds of things. Sure he's challenging industry to build HSR. But if they don't offer the budget to do any of that, it isn't happening. The $12B proposed is most definitely not going to cover HSR from Toronto to Quebec City, as proposed for HFR Stage 1. That's less than $14M/km and would have to include double tracking, grade separation and electrification, to build high speed rail. But happening. Despite the loose politicking.

The realistic proposal they will get for $12B is basically something between HFR as originally proposed and lower end High Speed Rail. They'll get some straightening and grade separation, applied strategically to boost average speeds. And they'll probably attempt to reuse as much of the existing rolling stock and infrastructure (mostly stations) as possible. We are definitely not getting 300 kph running anywhere. And even if there's some stretch designed for it, the bidder most definitely isn't going to spend for a whole new fleet just to save mere minutes.

The reality is that they need an average speed of 160 kph to make Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal competitive with air (~3.5 hrs). An average speed of 140 kph puts them a hair under 4 hrs, which would be competitive with everything but air. They can achieve those average speeds with substantial stretches running as close to the Venture's top design speed of 201 kph as possible. They just don't need 300 kph. Especially if they are willing to do things like bypass major cities (like Ottawa).

 

[kEiThZ]

And I do not understand the logic of abandoning the existing routes from Quebec City / Montreal / Brockville/ Kingston/Toronto to some sort of degraded level of service from what exists now.

The existing routes are at the mercy of the freight rail companies. Service cannot be improved because the track owners aren't interested. If they are, they'll be able to bid for HFR and offer to prioritize passenger rail on an existing rail corridor. We're unlikely to see that.

And once you take away all the passengers going between the large metros (Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal), there's really not enough traffic to sustain the current schedule. But also, the current schedule sucks, because it's entirely tailored to departing from the big metros. Saw this first hand recently when I was in Trenton for a course. Even with fewer trains per day, a better schedule would be a substantial improvement for these cities.

 

[Urban Sky]

I agree. And I do not understand the logic of abandoning the existing routes from Quebec City / Montreal / Brockville/ Kingston/Toronto to some sort of degraded level of service from what exists now.

And once you take away all the passengers going between the large metros (Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal), there's really not enough traffic to sustain the current schedule. But also, the current schedule sucks, because it's entirely tailored to departing from the big metros. Saw this first hand recently when I was in Trenton for a course. Even with fewer trains per day, a better schedule would be a substantial improvement for these cities.

This is the only available connection which shows up when you try to book from Trenton to Montreal:

7 hours for 377 km (470 km with the Ottawa detour) - isn't this amazing...?