SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
More VIA RDC testing on CN's Chatham Sub (via Southwestern Ontario Transportation Alliance). https://www.flickr.com/photos/125809088@N04/30760530416/in/photostream#
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
SamStar
New Member
Isn't it the 3rd time VIA test its RDCs in SW Ontario ? Is CN really that concerned about the safety of the RDCs ?
steveintoronto
Superstar
Just trying to track the status of this line...
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlevoix_Railway
More here on the tourist aspect:
http://www.lifeinquebec.com/new-tourist-train-for-charlevoix-region-20104/
This has me intrigued, because if it can be done there, it can be done on branch lines in Ontario that interconnect with GO, if not on GO lines temporally separated.
Still digging...
Edit to Add and prior info edited above:
[From 1993-2009, Quebec Railway Corporation purchased and operated several rail lines throughout eastern Canada.
- Chemin de fer Charlevoix, operating between Quebec City and Clermont, Quebec in the Charlevoix region. Bought from CN by the QRC, it was the holding company's first subsidiary short line. Operations began in 1993. The section of the line between Quebec City and La Malbaie, Quebec was sold to Le Massif for a tourist train operation in April 2009 while the section east of La Malbaie to Clermont has been abandoned.[1]]
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Société_des_chemins_de_fer_du_Québec
(Edit: Chemin de fer Charlevoix does appear on TC lists of directives, there must be a waiver for using non-compliant stock, trying to find it)
Second Edit to Add:
[...][Recall that in April 2009, Groupe Le Massif through its subsidiary Train
touristique de Charlevoix acquired the section of track comprised between
Québec City and La Malbaie from La Société des chemins de fer du Québec.
Aside from generating dozens of full-time jobs between now and 2011,
ensuring the sustainability of this segment of track, guaranteeing the
passage of CN freight trains over the coming years and making middle and
long-term regional rail transport endeavours possible, this work will bring
about the implementation of two key elements in the Massif de Charlevoix
project, namely the integration of a rail shuttle between Baie-Saint-Paul
and Petite-Rivière-Saint-François, and putting in service a new touring
train linking Québec City to La Malbaie.][...]
http://canadian-passenger-rail.yahoogroups.narkive.com/AUsJnhkH/anyone-know-more-about-le-massif
More here:
http://www.newswire.ca/news-release...ign-of-charlevoix-touringtrain-543803852.html
It seems (although I still haven't found reference) that there was a change of plans. The Pullmans (ex-Chicago) would ostensibly have allowed the use of the Quebec City VIA station, but I suspect CN changed plans on continuing freight operations due to costs on the line's length to Clermont, and the line was left potentially abandoned. It might now be regulated/chartered under Quebec law which would allow the line to be run non-compliant to Fed regs. The O-Train still remains an exception though. Still digging...
TC lists:
[...]
Tourist trains
Tourist trains are a growing sector of passenger rail and generally operate in the spring, summer and fall months. Most trips are one to two hours, although some can encompass one or two days.
[...]
In Quebec, the Orford Express provides gourmet dinner train service out of Sherbrooke. A new service, the Train Le Massif of Charlevoix, began service from Quebec City to the Charlevoix region in 2011. The train is scheduled to operate various itineraries year-round—a first for this sector.[...]
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/policy/anre-menu-3020.htm
Note Pullmans behind the DMUs in pic attached! Hopes of VIA connection in Quebec City yet?
Hopefully final edit:
[...]
2. Railway Companies Under Provincial Railway Safety Jurisdiction2
[...]
Quebec
[...]
6 short lines:
[...]
Chemin de fer Charlevoix
[...]
- TC inspects and recommends action
- Quebec enforces
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/tcss/RSA_review/appendixe-404.htm
Attachments
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dowlingm
Senior Member
Possibly issues with the DMUs being detected by the CN signalling systems.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Did some digging and found some things to read:
NEWS RELEASE: TRANSPORT CANADA NEEDS TO IMPROVE VIA RAIL CANADA INC.’S CORPORATE GOVERNANCE TO ENSURE ITS LONG-TERM VIABILITY
VIA Rail Canada Inc. Special Examination Report—2016:
VIA RAIL CANADA INC., SPECIAL EXAMINATION REPORT OF THE SPRING 2016 REPORTS OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL OF CANADA
DETAILED ACTION PLAN FOR OAG REPORT RECOMMENDATIONS:
NEWS RELEASE: TRANSPORT CANADA NEEDS TO IMPROVE VIA RAIL CANADA INC.’S CORPORATE GOVERNANCE TO ENSURE ITS LONG-TERM VIABILITY
VIA Rail Canada Inc. Special Examination Report—2016:
VIA RAIL CANADA INC., SPECIAL EXAMINATION REPORT OF THE SPRING 2016 REPORTS OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL OF CANADA
DETAILED ACTION PLAN FOR OAG REPORT RECOMMENDATIONS:
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Expected Completion of coporate governance change -- April 2017
That may be the earliest they can begin officially legally funding the HFR project.
crs1026
Superstar
Still no movement towards a VIA Rail Canada Act.
- Paul
- Paul
Garuda
Active Member
Ha! I'm really proud of this fire I've kindled in this thread.
Following the line, the Class 628 does run at at grade crossings. I find this intriging as the O Train is not allowed to run at grade with car traffic or along with freight. So, what makes the Class 628 special from the O Train?
steveintoronto
Superstar
It's a very good question...and I can only Google for so long before coming up for air, and I've had TC's section before on waivers, researching the Quebec North Shore and Labrador's single operator waiver years back, and the precedent that set for MM&A (I found more on US Gov't websites than I did on Cdn, not the least because Amtrak were considering doing same and the TSB had included the QNS&L accident and details in a long report they published on safety aspects)(they favoured it if two coach crew were certified for safety and other caveats).
So I will continue to search to find out what exactly allows the 628s to run as they do, but already have determined that the line (and thus the rolling stock) is *Provincially Chartered*. The O-Train is federally chartered, not least since it is the Capital Region and expected at some later date to cross the Ottawa River into Quebec, automatically dictating it come under federal jurisdiction.
GO, for reasons I still haven't fully discovered (perhaps since it runs over Class 1 roads, federally regulated) is federally chartered. I have fathomed that the O-Train was not only granted waivers, but used as a show-case for it by TC! (and a host of other federal, municipal and private concerns)
I'm falling asleep here, did a cursory Google again, can't find what I had before, but I will, but here's something to dig through on the Halifax commuter situation that VIA bid on:
https://www.halifax.ca/transit/commuterrailfaq.php
I continue to be deeply intrigued. Anything that opens the door to European style D/EMUs puts us light years ahead for options and answers, and *huge* savings.
Edit to Add: What a difference new tags make in a search! Here's one of the extensive articles I was looking for, this from Transport Canada's website:
[...]
Partner expertise. There were no examples in North America of a single operator passenger train, so municipal officials relied on the expertise of its partners to design and implement the O-Train. More than a dozen partners lent their experience and knowledge to the project. Some of them include:
- CPR, as owner of the corridor, engaged Morrison Hershfield (an engineering and management firm) to manage the project. This included design and construction administration, upgrading the lines and maintenance facilities, and building the rail stations.
- Bombardier provided and maintains the trains and, with AR Concepts, developed and installed the signaling system.
- Transport Canada worked with the city to develop an operating plan that met federal legislation requirements under the Rail Safety Act. The plan includes operating rules, emergency procedures, employee training programs, and a Safety Management System.
- [...]
- Actions — Program measures
The 8-km line. Prior to the O-Train project, the CPR freight line and its rail yard were seldom used and in poor condition. CPR upgraded the line to accommodate the O-Train, and no other trains use the track except when the O-Train is not operating.
The CPR track crosses two other active rail lines, making the signalling and braking systems (discussed below) important safety elements.
The line also runs through a 600-metre tunnel beneath Dow’s Lake. The tunnel was upgraded to meet engineering standards and to install a water system to provide a source of water for fire fighting in the tunnel. Lighting in the tunnel was improved and a walkway system installed in case of emergencies.
The original jointed track was upgraded but caused problems such as damage to the trains and excessive noise. It also made the ride uncomfortable for passengers. Instead, OC Transpo installed continuous welded rail in the summer of 2003 at a cost of $2.2 million, adding to the original capital budget for the project.
Signalling system. The existing Automatic Block Signal (ABS) system was overhauled as it was antiquated and did not function according to the needs of the O-Train line. Signal hardware and wiring were renovated and locations changed to provide efficient signal communication to trains.
Braking system. A German-designed Indusi automatic braking system was installed—the first time such a system had been used in North America. The Indusi system is computerized and consists of track magnets and speed monitoring devices on the trains. If the train is moving too fast, the braking system detects it and initiates the brakes automatically. The Indusi system works with the ABS system so that proper train separation is maintained. Safety is further enhanced through direct operator control.
Bombardier Talent Diesel Multiple Units (DMU). Three Bombardier Talent DMU trains were commissioned. The trains were built in Germany and shipped first to Montreal before arriving in Ottawa in January 2001.
The trains use Clear No. 1 diesel fuel, which contains less sulphur than other grades. The trains comply with exhaust emission requirements of Euro-II contaminant standards (the standards set by the European Union).
Each train weighs 72,000 kg, is 48 metres long, with seating capacity for 137 passengers and standing capacity for 150.
Each train is equipped with two four-stroke diesel engines, water-cooled in-line motors, and a horizontal-shaft design with exhaust gas turbocharger and charge cooler. Top speed is 120 km/hr.
- [...]
- Participants
[...]
- City of Ottawa
- Transport Canada
- Human Resources Development Canada
- Canadian Pacific Railway
- Canadian National Railway
- VIA Rail
- Carleton University
- Public Works and Government Services Canada
- National Capital Commission
- Ottawa Police Services
- Women’s Initiative for a Safe Environment
- Transport 2000
- Canadian Transport Agency
- Local citizens and advocacy groups
- https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/railsafety/railsafety-981.html
- I'll dig more later...
- Post Script:
- [Three Bombardier Talent DMU trains were commissioned.] These were later replaced for a number of reasons, and now it looks like they're going back to heavier units like these again...whatever, but one wonders what happened to these three trainsets? I read their fate somewhere in past years, but these would be perfect (the Gods of Regulous permitting) to establish a pre-RER Bramalea to Union utilizing the tracks UPX uses much of the distance.
- From the Halifax link provided above:
- [...][Has low floor train service (such as Stadler GTW) beyond the VIA station into downtown towards Scotia Square been explored?
Yes, CPCS has explored the possibility of in-street running northward from the VIA Station using low-floor trains such as the Stadler GTW. The Stadler GTW is a diesel-multiple unit that is not compliant with existing Transport Canada and U.S. Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) rules and regulations; however, it is being used on track shared with freight trains in the U.S. under an alternative-compliance waiver from the FRA. (Receiving this alternative-compliance waiver from the FRA required extensive testing and the onus was on the agency requesting the waiver to demonstrate that the vehicle was safe to operate on shared track.) CPCS has reviewed some of the regulatory requirements associated with using non-compliant vehicles in Canada and will consider the potential for in-street running in Halifax in the final phase of the study.][...]
- And about bloody time too...The US is a laggard, and we're even further behind.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Just discovered previously edited material from a few years back that I compiled for another forum:
Here is a *very extensive* evaluation of the O-Train project: (far too long to quote or attach)
http://data.tc.gc.ca/archive/eng/programs/environment-utsp-otrainlightrailproject-973.htm
Here is a *very extensive* evaluation of the O-Train project: (far too long to quote or attach)
http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/ttc/2002/12-04/ACS2002-TUP-TRN-0012.htm
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
It is official: VIA Rail is proposing bringing service to Peterborough for its dedicated tracks project!
VIA Rail officials propose to bring commuter train service to Peterborough
http://www.mykawartha.com/news-stor...bring-commuter-train-service-to-peterborough/
PETERBOROUGH — A plan to run a commuter train service through Peterborough is in the works.
On Tuesday (Nov. 8), Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, president and CEO of VIA Rail, announced intentions to rebuild and use existing train tracks to allow for a commuter train to make its way through the region.
Desjardins-Siciliano says the inspiration for the project comes from the work of the Shining Waters Railway group, which for a number of years has been trying to secure commuter service in the area.
The announcement was made during a Greater Peterborough Chamber of Commerce and Shining Waters Railway event at The Venue. Many dignitaries were present including municipal, provincial and federal politicians as well as prominent business people and community leaders.
Desjardins-Siciliano addressed the crowd and spoke of the benefits of VIA Rail and how he has helped turn the independent Crown corporation around since taking over the helm in 2014.
He adds VIA officials began looking at the Shining Waters Railway plans and realized there was an opportunity there to enhance commuter rail service from Toronto to Quebec City.
“All credit should go to the people in the Peterborough area who came up with this idea,” says Desjardins-Siciliano. “(We) used their (Shining Waters Railway) work, their study and their idea and took it off from there. We’re not working with them per say, but Shining Waters inspired this.”
“(We want to convert) what seemed to be a non-viable commuter service between Peterborough and Toronto to a viable inter-city service that includes the commuter service out of Peterborough.”
Desjardins-Siciliano’s proposal is to use existing tracks located north of the freight line that is also runs commuter VIA service from Quebec to Toronto. The new dedicated line will go through Montreal, Ottawa, Smith Falls and Peterborough. In areas where no tracks are located, Desjardins-Siciliano says new lines will need to be built.
Having the dedicated line will increase the frequency of rail service through major centres, thus increasing ridership and revenue,, leading to less burden for Canadian taxpayers, says Desjardins-Siciliano.
Desjardins-Siciliano adds this plan, with a price tag of around $4 to $5 billion, hinges on government approval. A proposal will be presented to the Ministry of Transportation by the end of the month.
If approved, work will begin next spring to prepare the track for service.
“Eighteen months after a decision is made we would expect to see service starting to be introduced in some parts, possibly between Toronto and Peterborough,” says Desjardins-Siciliano.
He says stops along the route have not been determined, adding those locations will be based on market demand as well as assessments and conversations with municipalities.
“To get the service going is the priority,” adds Desjardins-Siciliano.
He says if approved, people could start to see service being introduced in communities like Peterborough where a current rail line exists. As for the entire project, he’d like to see it completed in its entirety by 2021.
VIA Rail officials propose to bring commuter train service to Peterborough
http://www.mykawartha.com/news-stor...bring-commuter-train-service-to-peterborough/
PETERBOROUGH — A plan to run a commuter train service through Peterborough is in the works.
On Tuesday (Nov. 8), Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, president and CEO of VIA Rail, announced intentions to rebuild and use existing train tracks to allow for a commuter train to make its way through the region.
Desjardins-Siciliano says the inspiration for the project comes from the work of the Shining Waters Railway group, which for a number of years has been trying to secure commuter service in the area.
The announcement was made during a Greater Peterborough Chamber of Commerce and Shining Waters Railway event at The Venue. Many dignitaries were present including municipal, provincial and federal politicians as well as prominent business people and community leaders.
Desjardins-Siciliano addressed the crowd and spoke of the benefits of VIA Rail and how he has helped turn the independent Crown corporation around since taking over the helm in 2014.
He adds VIA officials began looking at the Shining Waters Railway plans and realized there was an opportunity there to enhance commuter rail service from Toronto to Quebec City.
“All credit should go to the people in the Peterborough area who came up with this idea,” says Desjardins-Siciliano. “(We) used their (Shining Waters Railway) work, their study and their idea and took it off from there. We’re not working with them per say, but Shining Waters inspired this.”
“(We want to convert) what seemed to be a non-viable commuter service between Peterborough and Toronto to a viable inter-city service that includes the commuter service out of Peterborough.”
Desjardins-Siciliano’s proposal is to use existing tracks located north of the freight line that is also runs commuter VIA service from Quebec to Toronto. The new dedicated line will go through Montreal, Ottawa, Smith Falls and Peterborough. In areas where no tracks are located, Desjardins-Siciliano says new lines will need to be built.
Having the dedicated line will increase the frequency of rail service through major centres, thus increasing ridership and revenue,, leading to less burden for Canadian taxpayers, says Desjardins-Siciliano.
Desjardins-Siciliano adds this plan, with a price tag of around $4 to $5 billion, hinges on government approval. A proposal will be presented to the Ministry of Transportation by the end of the month.
If approved, work will begin next spring to prepare the track for service.
“Eighteen months after a decision is made we would expect to see service starting to be introduced in some parts, possibly between Toronto and Peterborough,” says Desjardins-Siciliano.
He says stops along the route have not been determined, adding those locations will be based on market demand as well as assessments and conversations with municipalities.
“To get the service going is the priority,” adds Desjardins-Siciliano.
He says if approved, people could start to see service being introduced in communities like Peterborough where a current rail line exists. As for the entire project, he’d like to see it completed in its entirety by 2021.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Wow! I wonder if the proposed Investment Bank is already connected to this?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
To the people of Peterborough & Lindsay this is nothing but good news but it's not an ideal solution. Certainly a return of VIA to Peterborough is great but as a commuter line it's much less so.
The best scenario is for it to be part of the GO system. This would mean fare integration with the rest of the GO network and {potentially if Metrolinx starts doing it's job} some fare integration with various local transit systems as well. Also a system run by VIA will clearly be heading for Union which would be a missed opportunity. The great thing about the Peterborough line is that it is the one GO route that could be used as a much needed crosstown GO line via Davisville. The line could go all the way from NE Toronto across to the Lakeshore in the extreme SW part of the city. This would make GO far more convenient for Torontonians to use and be more direct for crosstown travel but would have many more connections to other major lines {ie Davisville subway station} and would help relieve capacity issues at Union.
I'm quite sure the people of Peterborough are quite justifiably thrilled about the news but over the long-term this could be more harm than good. Such a service would put any GO train service to Pet. as a no-go as there simply wouldn't be the ridership for both services. If the ultimate goal is to have a completely integrated transit system across the Golden Horseshoe then this will could turn out to be detrimental.
The best scenario is for it to be part of the GO system. This would mean fare integration with the rest of the GO network and {potentially if Metrolinx starts doing it's job} some fare integration with various local transit systems as well. Also a system run by VIA will clearly be heading for Union which would be a missed opportunity. The great thing about the Peterborough line is that it is the one GO route that could be used as a much needed crosstown GO line via Davisville. The line could go all the way from NE Toronto across to the Lakeshore in the extreme SW part of the city. This would make GO far more convenient for Torontonians to use and be more direct for crosstown travel but would have many more connections to other major lines {ie Davisville subway station} and would help relieve capacity issues at Union.
I'm quite sure the people of Peterborough are quite justifiably thrilled about the news but over the long-term this could be more harm than good. Such a service would put any GO train service to Pet. as a no-go as there simply wouldn't be the ridership for both services. If the ultimate goal is to have a completely integrated transit system across the Golden Horseshoe then this will could turn out to be detrimental.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
If they do create an Infrastructure Bank, I'd be pretty confident this project would be linked to it.
I made a map of how the VIA trains would (could) access Union Station from the CP Havelock Sub within the context of Toronto and the GTA: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=15FZVCq_imMsdBpNAb1CP4JDw1Ss&ll=43.691360753552146,-79.32518096734623&z=12
Some other ideas/thoughts on the project and new routing:
- Would VIA want to build more stations within Toronto? Maybe at Eglinton and the CP midtown line near Don Mills?
- A potential station in East Markham to provide residents there with access
- I would assume any new stations would have level boarding? Seems like this is a trend for VIA
- Interesting that Quebec City now seems to be part of Phase 1 of this project. Originally it seemed to be pat of the Phase 2 "Toronto, London, Windsor" development
steveintoronto
Superstar
Something that has me intrigued is why VIA is playing this so low on the radar. This could have been announced on CNW, and got national press. They're purposely playing this low to the ground, and one wonders if it isn't a really well-controlled attempt to get local response before announcing much more? This is the complete opposite to GO announcements years before they happen, if ever. It could also be the required notice before the November deadline for Morneau's needs. Siciliano-Desjardins was seriously let down by Caisse prior, this might be a consolation prize via the Investment Bank, and allow Morneau to make the major announcement to kick-off the Bank.
Great heads-up Alex!
I beg to completely differ. GO would be a different service at different times, this would actually be a complementary symbiosis, the track quite possibly being owned by a separate consortium, the rolling stock being owned by VIA and GO, the track having catenary all the way to Union. This means that GO can run shorter EMUs to Peterborough, perhaps even a little beyond.
I see no conflict what-so-ever.
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