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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
timio
Active Member
Allandale25
Senior Member
I keep forgetting. What's the time frame on the fleet procurement and HFR?
kEiThZ
Superstar
We don't have an announcement for Phase 1 yet. There's not even an EA completed. I'm not even sure they have enough of a preliminary design to feed the EA process.
All from a government that gave the impression they believe in rail. Even in the best case scenario, where the Government fully funds "Phase 1", we're at least 6-8 years away from riding HFR. Realistically, we're probably a decade away from this.
I am absolutely pissed at this Government for being such teases on the rail file and their dogfuckery with HFR. They've done nothing but deliver the bare minimum. Fleet renewal after decades of underinvestment is not some grand accomplishment.
They created the CIB to apparently fund large infrastructure. And the first thing they did was buy into REM? I'm starting to think the Conservatives are right on the uselessness of the CIB. It's not actually doing anything to deliver gamechanging infrastructure.
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SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Fleet procurement is awarding a contract by end of year, and I believe trains are to start arriving in 2022. HFR is more vague, but Marc Garneau has said he wants a decision by end of year, but I am unsure if that decision will be public by end of year.
On another topic, this is interesting:
After announcing rebrand, Virgin Trains USA, formerly Brightline, files to go public
littlewill1166
Active Member
I've been on 88 a couple of times and I can say that the way VIA operates Friday train also plays a part in the delay. Usually, this train is an F40 pulling a HEP1 car and a HEP2 Club Car. However, on Fridays train 83 comprised of HEP1 and HEP2 cars is attached to the back of the train making a train that is about 10 cars long. The engine from train 83 which is at the back of the consist can't help push the train because the HEP1s don't have the cables necessary for MU operations. Thus a single F40 is pulling 10 cars and a P42 (sometimes 2 depending on whether or not another one is added for additional traction). As a result, it runs much slower on Fridays. Under perfect conditions, there is about 15 minutes of slack in the timetable between London and St. Marys and another 20 minutes between Kitchener and Toronto. However, this time is often eaten up by rail congestion and the like. I know that VIA is replacing some trains on 83 with LRCs next week, and the train that does 85/88 is having its HEP1 car replaced by a rebuilt HEP2 car sometime in the future, so that might help improve on-time reliability. In regards to the track conditions, it's a lot better this year than it was last year and I've been on trains that have been going upwards of 90 km/h on Thursdays when the train is 2 cars long between London and Kitchener and 120 after Kitchener.
crs1026
Superstar
From watching trains on Moving Maps since my first post, the 65ish km/hr limit west of Stratford seems to hold. Things are a little better than I posted east of Baden, ie trains go 60 km/hr most of the way to Kitchener, with a 16 km/hr slow order at the west end of Kitchener proper..... not exactly great performance.
East of Guelph, ML appears to have slapped a 55 mph limit on its trackage.
That line was good for 70 mph end to end when GEXR took it over.
- Paul
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
I saw on a Facebook group that the day CN took back the line, Metrolinx sent a geometry car down the rails. Maybe they found the track was in worse shape than thought.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Very interesting! I'd missed that move coming. Keep in mind though that Virgin's brand has become synonymous with "bad" in UK rail service right now. Mind you, Virgin is not alone in that. Whether that parlays to US investors or not will remain to be seen.
Whatever, it presages private investment being far more active in Cdn passenger rail.
Meantime, the UK press is on the story:
(From the Financial Times, which has the most detailed business aspect. For a video, the Independent is best)
https://www.ft.com/content/dcc94a18-e9aa-11e8-a34c-663b3f553b35
Virgin Trains USA to start running through Florida
The Independent-Nov. 17, 2018
In June, Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC), which was 90 per cent owned by Stagecoach Group, was replaced on the UK's flagship route from ...
Richard Branson brings Virgin brand to US rail
Financial Times-Nov. 16, 2018
Florida's Brightline rail service partners with Sir Richard Branson's ...
Tampa Bay Times-Nov. 16, 2018
Virgin Group purchases Brightline, renames it Virgin Trains USA
Florida Trend-Nov. 16, 2018
Brightline to become Virgin Trains USA
Daily Mail-Nov. 16, 2018
Brightline forms a partnership with Virgin. A name change is coming ...
Local Source-Miami Herald-Nov. 16, 2018
View all
Whoa! Ambitious...and very interesting. Could Sir Richard approach the Cdn InfraBank to involve doing HFR? It's often stated (correctly) in this string as to how the Average Pleb has no clue on "HFR".
They would with the "Virgin" name attached. Why, even SoCons could get behind that...in a consensual sort of way...
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littlewill1166
Active Member
I'm might be traveling on 88 on Thursday if 78 gets delayed 3 hours like last week. I'll post anything I find out onboard.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
A few thoughts on this:
1) Virgin Trains between Edmonton and Calgary would be cool, and VIA doesn't currently seem to have an appetite for it.
2) One of the ways that HFR has been discussed is that the Infrastructure Bank would own the tracks for HFR, and VIA would pay a kinda "rental fee" to use them. Unless an exclusivity clause was signed, Virgin could run trains on the new line too. Is this good or bad? Plenty of arguments for both, and issues like space at Union and Gare Centrale exist, including HFR track capacity. Virgin on the Toronto-Montreal corridor could technically terminate at Summerhill Station, as there is space for a 3rd track between the Don Branch and Summerhill Station. But that's a whole other conversation. Regardless, VIA at a minimum will be using these tracks as this is their baby, and their saving grace for the corridor.
3) A better Toronto-New York service could be cool, and if Virgin was able to figure out pre-clearance, and invest in some rail upgrades to boost speed I'd love to see it. I feel like this is more fantasy however. Toronto Cleveland is another cool-but unlikely to happen idea.
3) I am happy to welcome private rail operators as long as it isn't an excuse for lazy governments to cut public rail service. I heart VIA.
steveintoronto
Superstar
The Infra Bank would only participate in a minority role. They will act as a *catalyst* by bringing parties together, albeit they also have limited financing of their own at their disposal. Their biggest role will be matching investors to *gov't underwritten and legally enabled* agreements. By being part of a consortium, that alone brings massive power to an enterprise. Think the Missing Link, which by Infra Bank participation, can draw on gov't lawyers and expertise to 'make things happen'.
Rather than compete with VIA, chances are that they'll form a limited company as shareholders. Think Crossrail in the UK.
crs1026
Superstar
I rode Virgin in the UK in September, and it was not a particularly pleasant experience. Some of that is the result of UK specific matters, but one hopes Brightline doesn’t study the Virgin approach - which is bases on cut rate air travel, after all.
The PA announcements were long, intimidating recitations of fare policy “you cannot ride this train with an x class ticket, you must buy a y class ticket, or you will be fined” plus typical British obsession with rules (“Pease do not do x....”).They didn’t even attach the airlines’ typical insincere “For your safety and convenience....” and at one point the guard stated “Please don’t make my job harder by....”... - at least she said ‘please’.
It left the whole experience feeling strangely uptight. Left me vowing to look for other operators next trip.
The rolling stock, being much newer, was really nice. However, there was next to no space for luggage. The aisles were filled with suitcases (including ours) that didn’t fit overhead. There was only one wee luggage rack at one end of the car, and it filled immediately. I don’t know how accessibility was handled, but the coaches we rode clearly weren’t configured for accessibility.
And the toilets, while large, were a mess.
Hopefully the Brightline partnership is a financial deal and Brightline’s OCS approach will be retained.
- Paul
The PA announcements were long, intimidating recitations of fare policy “you cannot ride this train with an x class ticket, you must buy a y class ticket, or you will be fined” plus typical British obsession with rules (“Pease do not do x....”).They didn’t even attach the airlines’ typical insincere “For your safety and convenience....” and at one point the guard stated “Please don’t make my job harder by....”... - at least she said ‘please’.
It left the whole experience feeling strangely uptight. Left me vowing to look for other operators next trip.
The rolling stock, being much newer, was really nice. However, there was next to no space for luggage. The aisles were filled with suitcases (including ours) that didn’t fit overhead. There was only one wee luggage rack at one end of the car, and it filled immediately. I don’t know how accessibility was handled, but the coaches we rode clearly weren’t configured for accessibility.
And the toilets, while large, were a mess.
Hopefully the Brightline partnership is a financial deal and Brightline’s OCS approach will be retained.
- Paul
steveintoronto
Superstar
This is key!
See here: https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/crr7mlg0gmvt/virgin-trains
Note also a reader comment to the last article I've linked below:
https://therealdeal.com/miami/2018/...-public-under-its-new-name-virgin-trains-usa/
That lease has now been lost, and Virgin Rail are still extant in running the West Coast Mainline services, albeit at (IIRC) 51%. Even that might now be a minority holding.
In retrospect, Sir Richard probably regrets besmirching his brand by getting involved in UK rail operations. He tried to 'make a difference' in an 'institution' that doesn't care.
His brand travels well though, and I suspect he'll have a lot more success in the US...and maybe Canada! I think we'll be seeing some news articles on this shortly.
Btw: "Virgin VIA" has a lovely ring to it, or would it be "VIA Virgin"? (This would be for HFR, and the 'Virgin' brand would attract investors as much as passengers.)
Addendum: Doing some supplementary reading on this, and note the "North American" reference:
https://therealdeal.com/miami/2018/...-public-under-its-new-name-virgin-trains-usa/
From Infrastructure Canada on the Infra Bank:
https://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/CIB-BIC/index-eng.html
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kEiThZ
Superstar
That's mostly us speculating on here. How much actual speculation has there been from the professionals involved on this? I haven't seen much.
The CIB bought a stake in REM. Helped lower their financing costs. And hasn't done squat since. What a useless tool. CDPQ is actually helping get infrastructure built with REM. CIB is a ride-along.
The real problem here is that private investors don't want to build the corridors. They'll happily running rolling stock on there. But that's not the difficult or expensive part.