[SaugeenJunction]

Are we taking bets on when we’ll hear the fate (ride or die) for VIA HFR? I honestly think that the decision has already internally been made (end of year was when VIA thought they’d find out). I say we hear publicly late January or early February. Thoughts?

 

[micheal_can]

Are we taking bets on when we’ll hear the fate (ride or die) for VIA HFR? I honestly think that the decision has already internally been made (end of year was when VIA thought they’d find out). I say we hear publicly late January or early February. Thoughts?

Why would it die? It would be a great stimulus for the federal government to throw out there.

 

[kEiThZ]

That would depend. From Toronto it would not be. From Peterborough, yes it would be. It depends on where you are travelling from.

But if you're traveling from Toronto to Ottawa, why would you bother with service via Kingston? Post-HFR, Lakeshore service will be optimized around traveling from Kingston. It will not be optimized around departing from a major metro (as it is today). The HFR services will focus on the major metros.

 

[kEiThZ]

I thought you were one saying that the Lakeshore trains will be shuttered.

I didn't say they will be shuttered. But I have said before that I don't really care if they were shuttered. The needs of the 6 million in the major metros outweighs the needs of the 700k along the Lakeshore. That said, I hope VIA can make the Kingston hub work for them and offer them service tailored to their schedules. Will be better for them and remove political obstacles to HFR.

 

[kEiThZ]

Are we taking bets on when we’ll hear the fate (ride or die) for VIA HFR? I honestly think that the decision has already internally been made (end of year was when VIA thought they’d find out). I say we hear publicly late January or early February. Thoughts?

Saving for a budget splash?

I'm more curious about the JPO report than the actual approval announcement. The latter is formality to some extent. The former is the real meat that will tell us how they looked at and analyzed the situation and the various solutions.

 

[ec_traindriver]

Other than VIA's own maps, how about the words of Kingston's mayor after his negotiations with VIA on a regional hub:

VIA Rail upgrades Kingston service: the making of a regional hub – Mayor Bryan Paterson

Quoting from the link provided:

In this new model Kingston will be the Southeastern Ontario service hub with trains originating from Kingston every morning en route to Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa, and ending each evening in Kingston. This means Kingston residents will now be able to, for example, take the train to an early morning meeting in Ottawa, or take a late train back to Kingston after dinner and a show in Toronto.

Ah, the good ol' "commuter service" approach: a handful of trains in the morning to the big city, a handful of trains in the evening to get back home. Like if that actually worked. I seriously hope a bunch of #651s is not what VIA plans for the Lakeshore because that would slash ridership.

 

[crs1026]

^Positioning the mayor’s comments re hub as a ‘negotiation” may be overstatement. “Courtesy call” may be closer.

If the hub is nothing more than three layover trains, giving service into Kingston in the evening, and creating early morning departures to the three key end points, then it’s a very worthwhile improvement. Mid-day, trains may run through, or turn back, that’s a lesser operational matter.

The Mayor of Clarington (who is a decent, trustworthy sort) tweets about what Metrolinx is saying about service plans. But these often blur the line between the possible, the commitment, and the planned for later. In many ways, Clarington is still waiting.

I also look forward to the JPO report(s).to give us some clarity.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Are y'all forgetting what kind of service Kingston and the Lakeshore communities get today? I've spent time in Kingston. VIA is seen entirely as a student and pensioner service because the timings are largely inadequate for them today. Nobody who is actually employed uses VIA. This is a direct consequence of a service schedule that is optimized around departures from Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Starting in Kingston is a gamechanger for all the Lakeshore communities.

I don't get the derision of the the Kingston hub as "commuter service". Talk to anyone who lives in Kingston. They'd rather have "commuter service" than the current service of mostly useless timings. I know because I have colleagues who occasionally commute from Kingston to Ottawa. And they all drive today.

 

[kEiThZ]

I also look forward to the JPO report(s).to give us some clarity.

Would the JPO report cover the Kingston hub? It's not like that is integral to building HFR.

 

[ec_traindriver]

I don't get the derision of the the Kingston hub as "commuter service". Talk to anyone who lives in Kingston. They'd rather have "commuter service" than the current service of mostly useless timings. I know because I have colleagues who occasionally commute from Kingston to Ottawa. And they all drive today.

Well, my hopes are that it doesn't become, again, a commuter service only.

If the hub is nothing more than three layover trains, giving service into Kingston in the evening, and creating early morning departures to the three key end points, then it’s a very worthwhile improvement. Mid-day, trains may run through, or turn back, that’s a lesser operational matter.

This! Thank you @crs1026 for pointing that out. I should have written it myself in my previous comment.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well, my hopes are that it doesn't become, again, a commuter service only.

Turning 12 departures to Toronto per day into solely commuter service would be quite the accomplishment. That's better commuter service than any actual suburban railway in Canada today.

The 6 departures each to Ottawa and Montreal is more akin to commuter service, but entirely in line with the level of demand they have today.

Let's not forget, for all this heartache over Kingston, it's a small city of 170k. It's not going to be generating much ridership to begin with. As it stands, even today, it's filling up maybe one coach on each train.

 

[crs1026]

Would the JPO report cover the Kingston hub? It's not like that is integral to building HFR.

There’s not a lot of technical or financial study required, so the full JPO focus won’t be needed, no.
But as a matter of transparency and full disclosure, one would expect that VIA would articulate its business and service plan for the route.
To the extent that the JPO work represents the project’s EA...the core obligation of an EA is to identify and study all the impacts of a project. The change in service plan would be a direct impact and might be meaningful in presenting the pro’s and con’s. If it were omitted, it might be grounds for anyone opposed to challenge the EA as incomplete. No one wants that kind of delay.

- Paul

 

[ec_traindriver]

Turning 12 departures to Toronto per day into solely commuter service would be quite the accomplishment. That's better commuter service than any actual suburban railway in Canada today.

Calling a 250 km long service "suburban" is quite funny. But I get your idea.

The 6 departures each to Ottawa and Montreal is more akin to commuter service, but entirely in line with the level of demand they have today.

If it were, i.e., 8–12 regional departures/day to Toronto, and 6 regional departures/day each to Ottawa and Montréal, without eliminating through services à la #42 (Toronto–Ottawa), and #66 (Toronto–Montréal), then I would sincerely be okay with it. IMHO, there needs to be some sort of non-stopping service between Belleville and Kingston, and Toronto, Ottawa, Montréal. The bulk of the most direct trains would surely run uninterrupted on the HFR line, but there needs to be at least two or three "fast" departures per day. The last schedule I got for train #651, which I suppose is your "model" for the regional services to Toronto, says it's a 2 hour 53 minutes journey (Google Maps estimates a 2 hour 30 minute to 3 hour 30 minutes drive for the same route by car), while train #40, which runs no-stop between Toronto and Kingston, takes only 2 hour 9 minutes.

50-something minutes less journey time isn't something that I would renounce that easily if I were a Kingston resident commuting to any of the three major cities.

Let's not forget, for all this heartache over Kingston, it's a small city of 170k. It's not going to be generating much ridership to begin with. As it stands, even today, it's filling up maybe one coach on each train.

How much ridership did it generate before the pandemic?

 

[crs1026]

Let's not forget, for all this heartache over Kingston, it's a small city of 170k. It's not going to be generating much ridership to begin with. As it stands, even today, it's filling up maybe one coach on each train.

You point may be valid, but I’m tripping over your comment..... filling one coach of a four car train is pretty material.

I’m mobile and can’t scroll back to cut and paste, but I’m sure we have seen the exact numbers for Kingston ridership posted on this thread, both in absolute and ranked against other stations. My recollection is that it ranks pretty high. That may not outweight the merits, but one ought to look at those numbers and ask how will a new service plan change the numbers. My recollection is that Kingston ranks high enough that VIA should be worrying about retaining that much revenue, and future potential.

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

How much ridership did it generate before the pandemic?

According to this Access to Information Request, in 2018, VIA Rail had 456,586 passengers board and alight in Kingston, making it VIA's 5th busiest station. That puts it just behind London (at 508,955 passengers) and ahead of Quebec City (at 324,037 passengers).