[Urban Sky]

[lots of misconceptions or outright nonsense]

Since no part of above post pertains VIA Rail and almost every single claim or rhetorical question has been debunked here countless times, I would like to kindly ask to spare me to have to read the next reliably futile attempt of correcting his misconceptions. Or if someone nevertheless feels the need to respond, I would appreciate if that was done in the General Railway Discussions thread and not here...

Thank you!

 

[Bordercollie]

Since no part of above post pertains VIA Rail and almost every single claim or rhetorical question has been debunked here countless times, I would like to kindly ask to spare me to have to read the next reliably futile attempt of correcting his misconceptions. Or if someone nevertheless feels the need to respond, I would appreciate if that was done in the General Railway Discussions thread and not here...

Thank you!

I really do believe that rail service between Toronto, north bay and Sudbury is warranted.
People are moving from the city to Muskoka to work remotely, and they will need to visit the city for work and pleasure.
As more people move to the outlying areas there will be more demand for travel between the surround 300km's. If you only had to go to the Toronto office twice a month and you could take the train and know reliably that you would get to work on time it makes it an attractive proposition.
For that to happen you need at least two trips in either direction everyday. Four would be ideal.

Buses are important as well but they need to be in coordination with each other.

You can't expect people to drive to the station. At least have carpool lots so that people can get to a bus and then connect to a train. I don't expect the bus to drop you off within a ten minute walk in Penetanguishene.

 

[littlewill1166]

A train does not stop for a car accident. A train does not stop for a blizzard. Ever see a major highway closed for 12 hours and no other way around it? This reminds me of when the Nipigon River Bidge failed a few years ago. There is no road route around it in Canada. A train running the old CP Canadian route would have easily been utilized. Southern ON doesn't face that kind of issue. If the 401 is closed along the entire route, you could make your way around it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but people just took boats over to the other side of the bridge. But honestly, you're over-romanticizing rail travel. Just wait till your inbox is filled with these ∨


There's more where these came from, and these are only the delays from before I boarded my trains.

 

[micheal_can]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but people just took boats over to the other side of the bridge. But honestly, you're over-romanticizing rail travel. Just wait till your inbox is filled with these ∨
View attachment 300648View attachment 300649View attachment 300650View attachment 300651View attachment 300652View attachment 300653View attachment 300654View attachment 300655View attachment 300656View attachment 300658

There's more where these came from, and these are only the delays from before I boarded my trains.

I would love to get all of these annoying emails. Reality is that nothing is going to be done to improve service outside of the Corridor.

 

[Urban Sky]

I really do believe that rail service between Toronto, north bay and Sudbury is warranted.
People are moving from the city to Muskoka to work remotely, and they will need to visit the city for work and pleasure.

Let’s do a little timetabling exercise: if a train was to reach Toronto in the morning in time for the start of a working day (i.e. arrival no later than 8:30), what time would it pick up passengers in Sudbury, North Bay and Muskoka? And, if the return train was to leave after the end of a working (i.e. departure no earlier than 17:30), what time would it drop off passengers at these places?

As more people move to the outlying areas there will be more demand for travel between the surround 300km's. If you only had to go to the Toronto office twice a month and you could take the train and know reliably that you would get to work on time it makes it an attractive proposition.
For that to happen you need at least two trips in either direction everyday. Four would be ideal.

Currently, Toronto-Kitchener-London has two trips per day and the extension to Sarnia only one. Don’t you think that these corridors are much more deserving of four trains per day than Toronto-Sudbury?

Buses are important as well but they need to be in coordination with each other.

You can't expect people to drive to the station. At least have carpool lots so that people can get to a bus and then connect to a train. I don't expect the bus to drop you off within a ten minute walk in Penetanguishene.

These are valid observations, but have nothing to do with the topic of this thread...

***

I would love to get all of these annoying emails. Reality is that nothing is going to be done to improve service outside of the Corridor.

If your definition of “service” excludes all other modes of passenger transportation than railways, then of course, “nothing is going to be done to improve service outside of the Corridor”, as investments in such a capital-intensive and high-capacity mode subject to extreme economies of scale should be focused on where most people live...

 

[littlewill1166]

I would love to get all of these annoying emails. Reality is that nothing is going to be done to improve service outside of the Corridor.

Wrong answer. I would have accepted:

I would love to be 4 hours delayed getting home because of mechanical issues (I overheard an engineer spilt coffee on the control panel) and had to wait for a replacement locomotive from Toronto (many people missed their flights home for reading week) (train 76).
I would love to be 4 hours delayed getting home because the locomotive couldn't operate properly due to subzero temperatures and that a replacement locomotive had to be brought in from Toronto (train 80).
I would love to be 2 hours delayed causing me to miss class because of a frozen track switch (train 71).
I would love to be an hour and a half delayed because of signal issues (too many to count).
I love missing family dinners because I got stuck behind a freight train (too many to count).
I would love to be delayed 4 hours causing me to miss a meeting because a coupler on a CN freight train broke blocking a single track (train 76).
I love how CN placed loose equipment on the tracks causing multiple emergency stops and the delightful smell of burning brake fluid and my train getting hopelessly delayed behind slow GO trains running into Toronto. This practice eventually culminated in fuel leaks, smashed windows, and cascading delays resulting in exhausted crews across the network over several days. I still remember reading posts on Twitter about how the people on board were stuck for hours in the cold without access to power, heat, or the toilets because the engine had to be shut off due to a suspected fuel leak (that could have been my train).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/via-rail-train-fuel-leak-1.5064904

Via Rail train evacuated after being hit by debris near Trenton, Ont.

A Via Rail train traveling between Toronto and Ottawa had to be evacuated after it was hit by debris near Trenton, Ont., Saturday afternoon.

ca.news.yahoo.com

If you're wondering why I'm so concerned about there being a staff member in each car ∨

I would love to be an hour and a half delayed because a woman overdosed and had a seizure on the train and had to be taken off at a level crossing just outside of Brantford (train 76).
I would love to be an hour delayed because a man had a heart attack on the train had to be taken off at Oakville (train 78).

And finally,

I love how I was 1-3 hours delayed because someone took their lives on the tracks and caused cascading delays across the VIA network (multiple times).
I would love to be 2 hours delayed because someone was smoking on the train and assaulted a crew member (train 78).

 

[micheal_can]

Wrong answer. I would have accepted:

I would love to be 4 hours delayed getting home because of mechanical issues (I overheard an engineer spilt coffee on the control panel) and had to wait for a replacement locomotive from Toronto (many people missed their flights home for reading week) (train 76).
I would love to be 4 hours delayed getting home because the locomotive couldn't operate properly due to subzero temperatures and that a replacement locomotive had to be brought in from Toronto (train 80).
I would love to be 2 hours delayed causing me to miss class because of a frozen track switch (train 71).
I would love to be an hour and a half delayed because of signal issues (too many to count).
I love missing family dinners because I got stuck behind a freight train (too many to count).
I would love to be delayed 4 hours causing me to miss a meeting because a coupler on a CN freight train broke blocking a single track (train 76).
I love how CN placed loose equipment on the tracks causing multiple emergency stops and the delightful smell of burning brake fluid and my train getting hopelessly delayed behind slow GO trains running into Toronto. This practice eventually culminated in fuel leaks, smashed windows, and cascading delays resulting in exhausted crews across the network over several days. I still remember reading posts on Twitter about how the people on board were stuck for hours in the cold without access to power, heat, or the toilets because the engine had to be shut off due to a suspected fuel leak (that could have been my train).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/via-rail-train-fuel-leak-1.5064904

Via Rail train evacuated after being hit by debris near Trenton, Ont.

A Via Rail train traveling between Toronto and Ottawa had to be evacuated after it was hit by debris near Trenton, Ont., Saturday afternoon.

ca.news.yahoo.com

If you're wondering why I'm so concerned about there being a staff member in each car ∨

I would love to be an hour and a half delayed because a woman overdosed and had a seizure on the train and had to be taken off at a level crossing just outside of Brantford (train 76).
I would love to be an hour delayed because a man had a heart attack on the train had to be taken off at Oakville (train 78).

And finally,

I love how I was 1-3 hours delayed because someone took their lives on the tracks and caused cascading delays across the VIA network (multiple times).
I would love to be 2 hours delayed because someone was smoking on the train and assaulted a crew member (train 78).

I think it was Christmas 2019, or 2018, the Canadian train was over 24 hours late. It think it was about 48 hours late. It was due to an engine failure out of Toronto. They were stopped in Capreol till a new one could be sent up to bring them the rest of the way to Vancouver.

So, yes, I would love all of these emails telling me my train is delayed. That would mean that I have a train.

 

[Urban Sky]

So, yes, I would love all of these emails telling me my train is delayed. That would mean that I have a train.

If you ask me, people who place so much importance on the availability of passenger rail service (while disdaining all other modes of public transportation), yet choose to live in a place like Sudbury, set themselves up for a life in misery. You either get over your aversion against buses or move to where train service meets your personal definition of whatever you may deem an acceptable level...

 

[littlewill1166]

I think it was Christmas 2019, or 2018, the Canadian train was over 24 hours late. It think it was about 48 hours late. It was due to an engine failure out of Toronto. They were stopped in Capreol till a new one could be sent up to bring them the rest of the way to Vancouver.

So, yes, I would love all of these emails telling me my train is delayed. That would mean that I have a train.

It's not just emails, it's cumulatively days of your life lost because of things that are outside of your control*. For most people, a train is just a method of transportation. To go further, most people only care about frequency and price. The only thing a train does better than a bus is its capacity and sometimes its comfort unless it's an unrenovated HEP 2 (yes, I did not include the ability to avoid congestion for reasons listed in post 9100).

Since Greyhound's shutdown, the only form of public transportation between Toronto and London Ontario has been the two trips that VIA had been operating. If the money used to fund those two trains could be diverted towards four busses I would support it because having higher frequencies is more convenient (London had 12 daily busses and 5 daily trains before COVID for comparison).**.

@micheal_can If you could make the same choice for your city pair in Northern Ontario, which would you pick (2 trains or 4 busses), and justify your answer (economically, socially, I like trains)?

I'm not sure where to fit this in, but I am very much supportive of VIA becoming an integrated bus/train operator like GO Transit given what has happened to Greyhound. There are some trains like 85/88 (which gets stuck on the single track between London and St. Mary's daily), which could be far more effectively operated by busses.

*This is meant to illustrate that train travel is just like any other form of transportation, there are benefits and downsides to all methods of transportation. Some members here seem to think that trains are the holy grail to solving everything. Nonetheless, Greyhound is far less competent than VIA, but I'd prefer it if GO operated SWO services but, that's a conversation for a different time (hint: imo intra-provincial routes should be funded by the provinces they operate in. It's not fair that Albertans are subsidizing service between Toronto and Niagara Falls/Kingston/London or routes within Arctic Ontario).

**Yes I know this is not possible without creating significant difficulty when it comes time to resume operations post COVID given that crews would need to be retrained etc. Also unlike northern Ontario, the commuter trains in SWO pre-pandemic 82/83/75 could not be replaced with busses given that they are always full with hundreds on board thus justifying the use of trains as a transportation method. But if ridership does not recover, conversation to busses should seriously be considered given how inconvenient two trains a day is.

 

[2transpo]

This may be off topic just a bit, but it does fit the theme.

In my opinion, the decision to cut the Northlander was the right one and there is no justification to see its return. How this relates to VIA is that routes that serve low-density communities are much better served by bus. It is something that we should be considering. Instead of trying to get rail service to more communities on more routes, in the majority of cases, better bus servics is the way to go.

 

[micheal_can]

It's not just emails, it's cumulatively days of your life lost because of things that are outside of your control*. For most people, a train is just a method of transportation. To go further, most people only care about frequency and price. The only thing a train does better than a bus is its capacity and sometimes its comfort unless it's an unrenovated HEP 2 (yes, I did not include the ability to avoid congestion for reasons listed in post 9100).

Since Greyhound's shutdown, the only form of public transportation between Toronto and London Ontario has been the two trips that VIA had been operating. If the money used to fund those two trains could be diverted towards four busses I would support it because having higher frequencies is more convenient (London had 12 daily busses and 5 daily trains before COVID for comparison).**.

@micheal_can If you could make the same choice for your city pair in Northern Ontario, which would you pick (2 trains or 4 busses), and justify your answer (economically, socially, I like trains)?

I'm not sure where to fit this in, but I am very much supportive of VIA becoming an integrated bus/train operator like GO Transit given what has happened to Greyhound. There are some trains like 85/88 (which gets stuck on the single track between London and St. Mary's daily), which could be far more effectively operated by busses.

*This is meant to illustrate that train travel is just like any other form of transportation, there are benefits and downsides to all methods of transportation. Some members here seem to think that trains are the holy grail to solving everything. Nonetheless, Greyhound is far less competent than VIA, but I'd prefer it if GO operated SWO services but, that's a conversation for a different time (hint: imo intra-provincial routes should be funded by the provinces they operate in. It's not fair that Albertans are subsidizing service between Toronto and Niagara Falls/Kingston/London or routes within Arctic Ontario).

**Yes I know this is not possible without creating significant difficulty when it comes time to resume operations post COVID given that crews would need to be retrained etc. Also unlike northern Ontario, the commuter trains in SWO pre-pandemic 82/83/75 could not be replaced with busses given that they are always full with hundreds on board thus justifying the use of trains as a transportation method. But if ridership does not recover, conversation to busses should seriously be considered given how inconvenient two trains a day is.

I would go with 2 trains.

Let's start with it being greener, and easier to convert to all electric as the government can easily mandate it to be electricity. Northern ON power is by hydro electricity mainly, but of course since we are on the grid, we do get nuclear and other methods. Nuclear is more greener than burning diesel fuel.

Our population is aging, even faster up here in the North. Our elderly family needs to be able to still get to "the big city" for medical appointments. Due to the overall condition of the roads, buses are not nearly as comfortable as a train.

Weather is a real factor up here. Part of the issue is if a highway is closed, there is no reasonable EDR. For example, take out the French River Bridge. Now, get from one side to the other. It will take hours. The same is true for much of the major highways. An even worse one is the Spanish River Bridge on Highway 17. Get from Espanola to Narin Centre. I mapped it out, it's 8 hours! And of course, the Nipigon River Bridge. Take that out and there is no other way to get to the other side without a Passport. So, if weather closes a highway, which typically happens throughout the winter, then a more robust system that does not depend on weather needs to be used.

Here is one.... pollution... From the salt polluting the waters along the roads to the tires wearing down and adding to the particulate matter, rail doesn't have nearly the same impact.

The biggest reason is even more simple. We deserve it. We should be entitled to the same taxpayer money as a place like Toronto or Montreal. If the provincial government can subsidize a provincial rail to serve commuters in the Toronto area, why not subsidize a rail line to Cochrane at the same rate? So, if it is $1 per mile, per passenger, for GO, pay that all the way to Cochrane. I know, being fair with taxpayer money is something governments have a problem with, but, fair is fair.

Reality is ever since the beginning of Via, they have been cutting their budget to the point that outside the Corridor it is useless for much more than sightseeing. I don't see that changing any time soon.

 

[crs1026]

If you ask me, people who place so much importance on the availability of passenger rail service (while disdaining all other modes of public transportation), yet choose to live in a place like Sudbury, set themselves up for a life in misery. You either get over your aversion against buses or move to where train service meets your personal definition of whatever you may deem an acceptable level...

You make a valid point, but I think it’s being expressed a bit mean-spiritedly. Those in remoter regions cannot expect transportation to have the form or convenience that is possible in more densely populated areas, I agree. But ”like it or move” is a bit arbitrary. As a very large country, we need to be very concerned about encouraging development in the hinterland (assuming, of course, that there are resource or other industries out there to make that investment sustainable).

The apt analogy that strikes me this morning, is owning a snowblower. My neighbour owns one, and I never have. At this precise moment as I watch him use it I’m envious, but as I do the math on price, frequency of use, and effort required to maintain and store a snowblower all year long to be ready for the odd blizzard, I still can’t justify the expense. This doesn’t mean I oppose snowblowers, there are other places where snowfall is heavier and everyone sensibly owns one. But not here in Etobicoke.

I think we would be well served to link Northern Ontario to the south by rail. For the most part, we actually have spare rail capacity to do that, if we focus on Toronto-North Bay- Timmins/Sault. However, in an environment where we haven’t even invested in Toronto-Kitchener-London or Toronto-Niagara, (both of which I can get really worked up about as missed opportunities) this may not be the time. Yet.

Whenever I think about Northern Ontario rail, I am reminded of the rail lines to Bodo Norway. Norway certainly proves that one can use rail to structure transportation in remote, sparsely populated areas. Having said that, while there are passenger trains up there, thay are not exactly on the hour - it’s a spartan, well though out but not lavish timetable. And, the Norwegian context is a light year away in terms of taxation and attitudes to public infrastructure investment.

- Paul

 

[tmlittle]

If you ask me, people who place so much importance on the availability of passenger rail service (while disdaining all other modes of public transportation), yet choose to live in a place like Sudbury, set themselves up for a life in misery. You either get over your aversion against buses or move to where train service meets your personal definition of whatever you may deem an acceptable level...

Not everyone shops around for places to live. Plenty of people want to live where they were born, where their friends and family are, and in a community where they feel comfortable. Places like Sudbury have seen incredible decay in train service in the last 40 years. You can't take train service away from people and then chastise them for not living somewhere with good train service.

 

[Bordercollie]

Does anyone have the PRE-covid schedule for the Canadian between Toronto and Sudbury?

 

[roger1818]

None of ONR owned track is that low of speed. Someone else can give you the proper one, but it is not that slow.

Yet Another Strawman Argument (YASA)! If you actually took the time to read my post, you would have noticed that I said:

I wouldn't trivialize the cost of maintaining track to any reasonable standard (a passenger train crawling along at 15mph (24 km/h) is not going to cut it). The Northlander ran on track that was also being used by Ontario Northland for freight. It is only economical if VIA is using it many times a day (like with HFR). For routes that will only see at most 1 train a day each way, those costs will be significantly higher than using another railway's track.

Regardless of the condition today, without proper maintenance, the track will deteriorate.