[Frank_Lee]

With transportation infrastructure though in particular, one thing that's become increasingly well established academically is the massive directly economic externality capitalized in the land values near the infrastructure. This has been obvious at a pragmatic level since the days of the CPR, but it is unfortunate that thus far, no government has been able to devise a mechanism that would enable this to directly finance infrastructure expansion. An example that you can directly see on this website is the rapid increase in proposed and constructed development along the Eglinton LRT route. Some of the development is endogenously due to policies that relax zoning and permitting restrictions near transit corridors, but the underlying value of the land has dramatically increased too, not just the amount of built construction.

 

[lenaitch]

A bit of a diversion, but I'm sitting here with my morning coffee and watching a re-run of the 'Mighty Trains' episode of Australia's 'Ghan', their north-south cross country version of the Canadian. I've often wondered why the Canadian doesn't offer an auto rack service for end-to-end tourists. Logistical challenges for sure .

 

[crs1026]

A bit of a diversion, but I'm sitting here with my morning coffee and watching a re-run of the 'Mighty Trains' episode of Australia's 'Ghan', their north-south cross country version of the Canadian. I've often wondered why the Canadian doesn't offer an auto rack service for end-to-end tourists. Logistical challenges for sure .

It’s done elsewhere so I can’t naysay the idea, but I have to think that it would be hard for VIA to offer at a price that’s less than the cost of a rental at the other end. Plus, I bet few travellers actually do a round trip by land.....although driving one way and taking the train the other strikes me as a great travel experience.

If I were VIA I would be worried about the liabilities....unlike Auto Train, which is a single overnight, a picnic cooler left in the trunk of a car for four days could be pretty ripe at the other end. Inevitably, someone will try to hide their cat in a car witha supply of food. Add in the labour costs for loading/unloading, the scratch and dent prevention (and proof thereof), the need for a compound and terminal somewhere close to downtown.....the need to lift/setoff the auto transporter to/from the head end (or sacrifice the view from the Prestige Park Car).... not trying to be negative but I can sure think of logistical challenges

- Paul

 

[innsertnamehere]

Yup. If you look at the Amtrak auto train, it’s terminus stations look more like freight yards than passenger stations to handle the vehicle loading.

 

[lenaitch]

It’s done elsewhere so I can’t naysay the idea, but I have to think that it would be hard for VIA to offer at a price that’s less than the cost of a rental at the other end. Plus, I bet few travellers actually do a round trip by land.....although driving one way and taking the train the other strikes me as a great travel experience.

If I were VIA I would be worried about the liabilities....unlike Auto Train, which is a single overnight, a picnic cooler left in the trunk of a car for four days could be pretty ripe at the other end. Inevitably, someone will try to hide their cat in a car witha supply of food. Add in the labour costs for loading/unloading, the scratch and dent prevention (and proof thereof), the need for a compound and terminal somewhere close to downtown.....the need to lift/setoff the auto transporter to/from the head end (or sacrifice the view from the Prestige Park Car).... not trying to be negative but I can sure think of logistical challenges

- Paul

I wasn't thinking so much as tootling around at the other end, more of, say, an easterner wanting the 'Canadian experience' then driving back. As it stands, the only realistic option is to fly (which is what my brother did). If a lot of their tourist clientele is foreign, maybe it's not a a big deal.

The Australian 'Ghan' is three days. For sure there would be logistical issues. The passenger would have to get their vehicle to Willowbrook or wherever.

 

[smallspy]

CN used to offer the service from Toronto to Edmonton back in the early 1970s.

It was a flop however. It regularly only required 1 autorack per train and sometimes not even. So although 10 cars were modified for the service, they regularly sat around not doing much.

At the time the logistics were much easier - CN had facilities that allowed them to load and unload the autoracks quite close to the respective stations. Today, however....it would be much harder to figure that out. Would VIA be responsible for busing people from the stations to the loading ramps?

Dan

 

[roger1818]

Would VIA be responsible for busing people from the stations to the loading ramps?

Properly VIA would have a combined station (similar to Amtrak's Auto Train stations) that they could load the cars and have a platform to allow the passengers to board. For the purpose of a trial, they could bus people from an existing terminal to an existing station.

I'm not convinced that it would work well in western Canada but I have often thought that having an overnight Auto Train from Montreal (probably the south shore) to somewhere in western New Brunswick (depending which route is chosen) could work well. One of the key reasons people drive to the Maritimes is so that they can have a car to tour around. This would be an efficient alternative if it was competitively priced with the combination of flying and renting a car or driving while overnighting half way.

Not sure if there would be enough demand for VIA could make a go of it though, but it could be worth investigating. Adding onboard car charging (so that you arrive at your destination fully charged) could make it especially attractive (drive to Montreal Friday afternoon and wake up in New Brunswick Saturday morning refreshed with your car fully charged ready to start touring).

 

[lenaitch]

I didn't realize it had been unsuccessfully tried before. With choppy logistics, it is unknown if folks would be willing to navigate them (getting the vehicle to x, finding their own way to the station, etc.) and bear the cost. Different scenario but a couple of years ago a neighbour moved back west. They had one of their vehicles picked up at their door by a tilt bed, taken to somewhere in the GTA, loaded onto a train, delivered to Edmonton then trucked to their new door. it was there when they arrived. I don't remember the cost but it seemed fairly reasonable in the whole scheme of things.

I don't really see the point of an 'auto train' from Montreal to western NB, but I suppose that is personal driving preferences. Beyond the fact that there are probably no marshalling facilities in western NB (Edmunston?), I don't really see much of an advantage to save ~5.5 hours of driving. By the time I navigated my way into the city I could be in Drummondville on Rte 20, and once outside the greater Mtl area, I don't much mind the drive eastward.

Anyway, it was just a musing based on a TV show.

 

[crs1026]

^Amtrak’s Auto Train works because they can fill a whole train with drivers, and spread the terminal and equipment cost across that entire trainload of fares. Without that steady daily volume, the economics of the terminals would be iffy.

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

^Amtrak’s Auto Train works because they can fill a whole train with drivers, and spread the terminal and equipment cost across that entire trainload of fares. Without that steady daily volume, the economics of the terminals would be iffy.

- Paul

Certainly Amtrak’s Auto Train has a huge advantage in that it connects one of the most populated regions in the country (the northeast corridor) with one if the most popular vacation destinations (Florida).

Interestingly the Auto-Train was originally started in 1971 by a private company (Auto-Train Corporation) and it was very successful, so they created a second route between Florida and Louisville, Kentucky. The second route was a total failure that bankrupted Auto-Train Corporation in 1981. Amtrak revived the service 2 years later on the original Lorton and Sanford route.

 

[robmausser]

Certainly Amtrak’s Auto Train has a huge advantage in that it connects one of the most populated regions in the country (the northeast corridor) with one if the most popular vacation destinations (Florida).

Interestingly the Auto-Train was originally started in 1971 by a private company (Auto-Train Corporation) and it was very successful, so they created a second route between Florida and Louisville, Kentucky. The second route was a total failure that bankrupted Auto-Train Corporation in 1981. Amtrak revived the service 2 years later on the original Lorton and Sanford route.

Any route that has multiple stops is an auto train killer. It takes hours to onload/offload cars. Not only that but the final destination has to be far away enough to justify too, or why bother bringing the car instead of driving it. Finally it has to be a car friendly place where you would want a car, or better need a car. No one would take the Auto Train to NYC, theres no point, having a car there is just a hassle.

 

[kEiThZ]

Canada's general intolerance of road tolls and user fees for infrastructure is problematic. People love nothing more than to complain about the cost of transportation - GO fares, VIA ticket costs, 407 fees, airline costs, etc.

There isn't political support for projects that are user funded, which limits the amount of infrastructure that can be built overall.

Which is exactly why the CIB is needed. Easier to monetize infrastructure that is not publicly owned. But the sector has trouble building infrastructure. An infrastructure bank can bridge the gap.

 

[smallspy]

Properly VIA would have a combined station (similar to Amtrak's Auto Train stations) that they could load the cars and have a platform to allow the passengers to board. For the purpose of a trial, they could bus people from an existing terminal to an existing station.

That's not an easy thing to resolve though. Technically, the nearest existing facility to Union would be the old piggyback ramps at Obico - and to be honest those haven't even been used in 20 years, and new equipment at the facility would have to be purchased. (Nevermind the fact that track would have to be relaid and that a lease would need to be signed with the current property owner.)

And ramps at Union would be a non-starter. If you wanted to have a single facility to handle everything the train would have to start and end at a new facility outside of downtown - with all of the resultant discussions about connectivity to the existing network.

Dan

 

[TerryJohnson]

That's not an easy thing to resolve though. Technically, the nearest existing facility to Union would be the old piggyback ramps at Obico - and to be honest those haven't even been used in 20 years, and new equipment at the facility would have to be purchased. (Nevermind the fact that track would have to be relaid and that a lease would need to be signed with the current property owner.)

And ramps at Union would be a non-starter. If you wanted to have a single facility to handle everything the train would have to start and end at a new facility outside of downtown - with all of the resultant discussions about connectivity to the existing network.

Dan

The question would be what origin-destination pairs in Canada would make the kind of huge difference that avoiding the I-95 does for AutoTrain passengers and could be better served by rail. If CP could offer an overnight trip from somewhere around Sudbury to somewhere east of Winnipeg, for piggyback trucks/trailers and AutoTrain, so you can go from the Prairies to southern Ontario it might be quite attractive, particularly in winter, but they'd have to be able to do it in one sleep to attract significant traffic off the highways (with dinner and breakfast, ~12 hours maximum acceptable running time?) which would require huge infrastructure investment and be a multi-billion-dollar gamble.

In the next decade, we're almost certainly going to see semi-autonomous electric-car-on-demand grow exponentially, replacing the need to bring your own last-mile vehicle for most destinations. The question will be how we manage to leverage the better physics and the opportunities for a better passenger experience of rail so people prefer higher-order public transport for the backbone of longer trips, allowing us to achieve much better land-use and use of public funds than a 12-lane traffic jam of AEVs on a new highway.

 

[roger1818]

Any route that has multiple stops is an auto train killer. It takes hours to onload/offload cars.

It is only an auto train killer, if you allow cars to be onloaded/offloaded at the intermediary stops. While there are advantages to having it run as an express service, allowing passengers (not cars) to board/alit at intermediary stops could also work. It could also operate as a split service, with the auto train being coupled to another train for a portion of its route. While those options might save money/generate additional revenue, they have the disadvantage of slowing down the auto train, making it less competitive to driving.

Not only that but the final destination has to be far away enough to justify too, or why bother bringing the car instead of driving it.

Agreed. Google says the drive from Lorton, VA to Sanford, FL is about 11.5 hours, where as the drives from Montreal to Fredericton, St. John and Moncton are 8:10, 8:20 and 9:40 respectively. Not sure if that is enough to warrant an auto train or not.

Finally it has to be a car friendly place where you would want a car, or better need a car. No one would take the Auto Train to NYC, theres no point, having a car there is just a hassle.

Agreed. That is why I said the Maritimes. It is definitely a destination that you would want a car.