Urban Sky
Senior Member
I'm not sure how much of a sell it would be to American taxpayers to fund infrastructure improvements abroad which (unlike pre-clearance facilities at Montreal's Gare Centrale) mostly benefit domestic travel...
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
Bordercollie
Senior Member
I wonder if this would be suitable for F40's if it works.
Tier 4, ‘All Notches, All the Time’ - Railway Age
Fullerton, Calif.-based technology company Rail Propulsion Systems LLC (RPS), partnering with the North Carolina DOT, the North Carolina State Clean Tech Center and the Federal Highway Administration, has demonstrated what it’s describing as “the first diesel passenger locomotive in the United...
www.railwayage.com
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Not sure how this relates to my reply to your previous comment you quoted, but the F40s have already been throughoutly rebuilt and are approaching 40 years, which is generally considered the end of the economic life for locomotives...I wonder if this would be suitable for F40's if it works.
Tier 4, ‘All Notches, All the Time’ - Railway Age
Fullerton, Calif.-based technology company Rail Propulsion Systems LLC (RPS), partnering with the North Carolina DOT, the North Carolina State Clean Tech Center and the Federal Highway Administration, has demonstrated what it’s describing as “the first diesel passenger locomotive in the United...
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I would not think this is an issue if it weren't for the latest developments.
VIA has given the GO ahead for GO service to London and obviously that service will increase dramatically over the next decade and beyond and due to GO service from KW all day soon coming, VIA has effectively begun the slow retreat from the service entirely. All one has to do is look at the same scenario that is taking place in Niagara where the VIA website now simply mentions rail service by working with it's "partners" at GO & Amtrak. When you now go to VIA's schedules for Niagara service you will find that there no longer is one.
Amtrak will find the Chicago/Detroit/Toronto a very lucrative one as Detroit to Toronto ridership explodes and very high ridership numbers at London and Windsor. When you combine this with VIA's purely political decision to provide HFR to QC and not London, it does make one wonder. When it comes to revenue per km the Union/London route requires the least amount of subsidy in the entire VIA system so financially it should be the very first line to get HFR yet VIA seems content to do absolutely nothing with this key corridor.
It certainly is not an "oversight" but possibly a long-term plan for VIA to not spend the money on a service that they are trying to retreat from?
VIA has given the GO ahead for GO service to London and obviously that service will increase dramatically over the next decade and beyond and due to GO service from KW all day soon coming, VIA has effectively begun the slow retreat from the service entirely. All one has to do is look at the same scenario that is taking place in Niagara where the VIA website now simply mentions rail service by working with it's "partners" at GO & Amtrak. When you now go to VIA's schedules for Niagara service you will find that there no longer is one.
Amtrak will find the Chicago/Detroit/Toronto a very lucrative one as Detroit to Toronto ridership explodes and very high ridership numbers at London and Windsor. When you combine this with VIA's purely political decision to provide HFR to QC and not London, it does make one wonder. When it comes to revenue per km the Union/London route requires the least amount of subsidy in the entire VIA system so financially it should be the very first line to get HFR yet VIA seems content to do absolutely nothing with this key corridor.
It certainly is not an "oversight" but possibly a long-term plan for VIA to not spend the money on a service that they are trying to retreat from?
crs1026
Superstar
I don’t see Amtrak about to “explode” service to Toronto…. did service thru Niagara “explode” when the Maple Leaf was inaugurated? VIA’s retreat from Niagara came later and happened for other reasons.
Opening the CP Windsor tunnel to passenger service might possibly lead to a couple Detroit-Toronto trains per day. (I can’t see CP accepting much more than that.)
There will be through ridership to Michigan and on to Chicago, and that might amount to a couple of international carloads per day in each direction …. certainly enough to make the service valuable as an increment to existing Chicago-Detroit and Toronto-Windsor services. But VIA will be left with its current service pattern and opportunity.
I think you are reading too much into GO starting token service to London. That does not put through Toronto-London-Windsor service at risk, and might actually add some riders to it.
In my heart I would like to see a much more aggressive development of service west of Toronto, but that inaction is a waste of opportunity rather than a risk to what we have running today. I expect to see modest growth in VIA’s numbers and market share year over year especially if HFR happens to the east.
- Paul
roger1818
Senior Member
Then again, the federal government is studying HFR west.
The Maple leaf has been cancelled during COVID. When it was operational, VIA operated the trains north of Niagara Falls (and the domestic tickets were sold by VIA). I have no doubt the same will be true when the service resumes. I don't think Amtrak is allowed to sell domestic rail tickets in Canada.
As @Urban Sky said, with the long delays at the boarder, it is much more likely that either Amtrack will run a train from Chicago to Windsor which then connects to a VIA train after clearing customs in the station, or VIA will run a train from Toronto to Detroit (via Windsor) which connects to a train to Chicago after clearing customs in the station.
As I said, the government is studying it, but the problem is there aren't any abandoned/underutilized rail lines VIA could use to London.
I think you are paranoid and reading into things.
TFC
Active Member
I fail to see how VIA is "trying to retreat" from the north mainline. As others have mentioned, the north mainline presents the best opportunity to add significant service to London long-term, especially if CN ends up selling the remaining portion of the Guelph subdivision to MX or VIA. The recurring comments yearning for VIA to abandon the north mainline, and Kitchener in particular, are rather unfortunate.
DirectionNorth
Senior Member
We're a world leader in studying things while not actually doing anything.
I don't think so either - but wasn't the International jointly run by Amtrak and VIA? I'd think that's the model they would use, though border crossing would be an issue.
I can see that happening.
Between Toronto and London, they would probably use the NML. West of London, I wonder how willing CN would be to sell the Chatham sub. Or maybe VIA could build its own track adjacent to CN's, though some agreement would have to be worked out; this may be an impractical solution.
You can't be over cautious with VIA. We have worse intercity service and more cuts than the Americans, which is a low bar to set. It's practically underground.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
the train ran with an Amtrack crew to Niagara falls after the train cleared customs and the passengers were back on board a VIA rail crew took over the train and it operated as aVIa train to Toronto. This was done because the train made stops along the way to Toronto, unlike the other trains that cross the border which retained their Amtrack crews.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
He was talking about the "International" (a Amtrak train which operated from 1982 to 2004 from Chicago via Sarnia to Toronto), but I believe it was the same arrangement as on the Maple Leaf, except that they seem to have alternated with VIA equipment until 1995...
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Interesting I had never heard of that train before I thought the maple leaf was the only train to the US to depart from Union station.
crs1026
Superstar
^There was also a shortlived overnight Toronto-NY train that ran weekends only (iirc). Didn’t prove to be worth the effort.
- Paul
- Paul
Bordercollie
Senior Member
If it could complete with the night bus that would make it successful.
Sleeping cabin for the same cost as airfare plus hotel with food included. Arrive in NYC before 9am.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I remember at one point they had a train that went from Toronto to Buffalo and back later in the day on Buffalo Bills game days they did it one season and had plans to build a station near the stadium. I don't think it did well as people who go to Bills games from Toronto want to tailgate
Urban Sky
Senior Member
What you are referring to is an Amtrak service which operated overnight between New York City and Niagara Falls, NY, where it connected with VIA #92 (from NIAG to TRTO) and VIA #95 (from TRTO to NIAG), presumably by having the passengers transfer and clearing customs by foot.
According to VIA's 1994-04-24 schedule, the overnight service was inaugurated on June 17, 1994, and departed NYC as #65 on Fridays and Saturdays, arriving in and returning from Niagara Falls the next day (i.e. as #62 on Saturdays and Sundays):
VIA's 1994-10-30 and 1995-04-30 schedules only show the train as leaving NYC on Fridays and Niagara Falls on Sundays, while it completely disappeared with the 1995-10-29 schedule.
The last time a night train operated across the Niagara River was therefore CP's Toronto-Buffalo-NYC service (which ceased in October 1970, when the service got replaced by the Toronto-Welland-Buffalo RDC service, which was then superceded in April 1981 by the Maple Leaf we know today):
Source: CP schedule (effective 1970-04-26)
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