micheal_can
Senior Member
If I understand the service, the point of it is a 1 seat between Toronto and Chicago. Correct?
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- Thread starter ehlow
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EnviroTO
Senior Member
I agree that is a worthwhile goal but it is clear they are doing this on the cheap which is probably fine for proving a market. VIA isn't going to pay for a major station lease at Detroit Michigan Central... Canadian tax dollars paying for a major facility outside of Canada is a bit of a non-starter. Amtrak only has three trains per day to Chicago and one is early morning and one is at night which means no connection to VIA. VIA actually runs more trains to the area than Amtrak. In negotiations that means that VIA/Canada would probably need to pay 4/7ths of the lease in Detroit plus the whole cost of the customs facility. The greatest benefactor to this service... Detroit. The whole situation needs to change in the US in order for Detroit as the terminus to make sense. If there are many more Chicago to Detroit trains, that might move the needle. High-speed investments, definitely moves the needle in favour of a terminus at Detroit. Connecting Toronto and Chicago once per day... doesn't really seem like something the Canadian taxpayer should fund the building of a Detroit railway station for.
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EnviroTO
Senior Member
You don't understand the service. Urban Sky's post of Amtrak material details the customer experience down to train timings and the activity at the border.
roger1818
Senior Member
On Groups IO, this Amtrak report on cross-border trains, was posted. One quote from it that caught my attention was, “A December 2021 agreement between Amtrak and CP allows Amtrak to operate service through the Detroit River Tunnel to connect with VIA.” IIRC, this agreement was part of the deal for Amtrak’s support for the CP/KCS merger. The key is that this is an agreement with Amtrak, not VIA, and getting permission for VIA trains to use the tunnel may take additional negotiations with KPKC.
Dan416
Senior Member
I don't know if it's just my impression but it seems like Amtrak cares more about new/improved cross-border services than VIA does.
roger1818
Senior Member
I suspect it’s less about VIA not caring and more about them not having enough money to do more than they currently do with their shoestring budget. With Amtrak Joe as president, Amtrak feels empowered to propose upgrades and improvements.
dowlingm
Senior Member
I don’t know why Amtrak cares when they could spend their entire budget on purely domestic service and not satisfy it, and when it has no formal cost-share (even on a proportional rather than equal basis) as State-sponsored services are obliged to meet, and there is no commitment to rail infrastructure upgrades on the Canadian side to reduce crew-hours or vehicle-hours on that side of the border
micheal_can
Senior Member
It is most likely due to the fact that Via is stuck with a small budget to do very simple things. Amtrak doesn't seem to be as neglected as Via is by their respectable governments. Everyone talks of Europe's rail system, but, even Amtrak is better than Canada's.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Just out of interest: what cross-border connections are there actually left for VIA to create or improve? Adirondack and Cascades have no potential for internal Canadian travel and are therefore best left with Amtrak, the Maple Leaf is constrained by the Seway bridge at Saint-Catherines, which pretty much only leaves Toronto-Windsor-Detroit(-Chicago), where the current $44 million proposal is by far the cheapest way to achieve a cross-border connection…
micheal_can
Senior Member
The only 2 that might be even remotely worth bringing back is the Gull (Halifax - Boston) and the Winnipegger(Winnipeg - St Paul) And of those, only the Gull would have a reasonable use within Canada.. Other than those, there is nothing.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
I'm sure Amtrak is looking at the short distance associated with this border crossing and the easier "everyone disembarks" customs and border control as a win because they will likely carry more revenue paying customers without much new operating expense. The Maple Leaf border crossing experience is painful. I would also hazard a guess that Canadians are more receptive to train travel in general so Amtrak is tapping into a revenue stream. Detroit is a much bigger city than Windsor, Chicago is a slightly bigger city than Toronto, but more passengers are arriving at Windsor than Detroit.
On the Maple Leaf, hours are wasted trying to clear a train to cross the border vs telling everyone to get off the train. With customs at the terminus both trains can be disembarking at the same time, both sets of passengers can be going through their respective customs, and both trains can be boarding at the same time. Anything on the train that someone didn't take through customs with them stays on the train and ends up going back where it came from.
On the Maple Leaf, hours are wasted trying to clear a train to cross the border vs telling everyone to get off the train. With customs at the terminus both trains can be disembarking at the same time, both sets of passengers can be going through their respective customs, and both trains can be boarding at the same time. Anything on the train that someone didn't take through customs with them stays on the train and ends up going back where it came from.
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roger1818
Senior Member
The majority of The Gull’s historical route of Boston to Halifax is south of the border (so I don’t see how it would make sense for it to be operated by VIA Rail. If it were to ever return (which I highly doubt) it would likely be as an extension of The Downeaster north to St. John, as it is the only significant destination that is close enough to the border (on either side) to be a a viable terminus with customs facilities. Of course that would only really work if there were connecting service(s) to other cities (either via bus or train) in the region.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Like all other cross border trains in Canada, I'd expect it would run by Amtrak Since they have no plans to do anything on that corridor, it isn't worth musing much over it.
Amtrak Proposed Expansion Maps & Routes
Amtrak's 15-year expansion plan aims to connect 160+ US communities, create jobs, reduce carbon footprint, and benefit all Americans by 2035.
www.amtrakconnectsus.com
dowlingm
Senior Member
Don’t forget the possible extension of Vermonter from St Albans VT to Montreal if customs ever opens at the latter
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Given that restoring that cross-border service is contingent on opening a pre-clearance facility in Montréal, there is absolutely no reason why VIA should operate such a service which would only transport to passengers to/from destinations within the United States…
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