[roger1818]

Wouldn't it be easier to have a three car venture set rotate from TMC?

Much easier, especially for the Northern Quebec trains, as they are already based out of MMC anyway. Even easier would be to base it on whatever car type the Ocean will use, assuming the long distance fleet replacement happens.

You would need a bigger baggage section, but you could easily put a big door on the cab car.

Or replace the business class car with a baggage car. Not sure how much demand there would be for business class on the the White River or Northern Quebec trains. Either way, the additional door would probably require TC approval, which is why it would probably make more sense to use whatever is used by the long distance fleet.

But then you would only have one car for passengers.

No. The smallest Venture configuration is a 3 car train, plus locomotive. 3 - 1 = 2 (not 1).

The other issue is that since VIA pays CP per axle additional cars would make the route less profitable. Especially adding a NCPU. You would have a locomotive and a NCPU costing you money. Venture cab car can at least carry passengers or used as a baggage car.

Can anyone confirm this? It seems to me that per axil component would be very small compared to the total fee for taking up a timeslot for a short train. Maybe if VIA was running a 100 car train, things would be different. That's just my gut feeling though. I don't have any inside information.

Also with the RDC you can add or remove capacity as required, with a fixed train set you cannot.

The Venture trainsets aren't fixed, they use semi-permanent couplers. Cars can be added and removed in the maintenance centre. It just isn't easy to do it in the field. It may not be something VIA will want to do on a day by day basis, but certainly cars could be added or removed on a more seasonal basis.

 

[lenaitch]

Aren't the control stands just standard like a kit you would install? What would make them unreliable?

I don't know the details, if they are accurate. I can only assume that they have been mechanically unreliable as power units and efforts by their shops o make them reliable have been less than successful.

 

[smallspy]

The Venture trainsets aren't fixed, they use semi-permanent couplers. Cars can be added and removed in the maintenance centre. It just isn't easy to do it in the field. It may not be something VIA will want to do on a day by day basis, but certainly cars could be added or removed on a more seasonal basis.

This is not necessarily the case, it depends on how the cars are configured and spec'd. For instance, a substantial number of the Amtrak Midwest cars are coming as single cars with standard APTA Type H knuckle couplers at each end.

Dan

 

[Bordercollie]

This is not necessarily the case, it depends on how the cars are configured and spec'd. For instance, a substantial number of the Amtrak Midwest cars are coming as single cars with standard APTA Type H knuckle couplers at each end.

Dan

But you would need to dead head coach cars from TMC and don't they use different stations at Sudbury? So a switching move would be required. Or just leave one car in Sudbury until it's required. You can add and remove as required.

 

[dowlingm]

But you would need to dead head coach cars from TMC and don't they use different stations at Sudbury? So a switching move would be required. Or just leave one car in Sudbury until it's required. You can add and remove as required.

Or… not convert the service to trainsets which are best maintained in a purpose built shop 400km away but instead existing equipment which can be maintained 130km away in North Bay. (And yes, what I mean by that is handing the service over to ONTC, along with a transfer of suitable and serviceable equipment and the Feds writing them a cheque for operations and CP/OVR passage). Whatever sense having shiny Ventures operate Northlander, it doesn’t seem to me that modern trainset furnishings are suited to bringing people to and from campgrounds, and paying Siemens design and qualify a baggage door to boot.

 

[roger1818]

This is not necessarily the case, it depends on how the cars are configured and spec'd. For instance, a substantial number of the Amtrak Midwest cars are coming as single cars with standard APTA Type H knuckle couplers at each end.

Dan

It is true that they can be ordered with knuckle couplers. I was referring to the configuration that VIA (and presumably ONR) are ordering.

But you would need to dead head coach cars from TMC and don't they use different stations at Sudbury? So a switching move would be required. Or just leave one car in Sudbury until it's required. You can add and remove as required.

I suspect the issue is moot anyway, as I can't see the White River train ever needing more than the minimum 3 cars; however, if they did, they would probably just swap out the entire trainset with one of the spares at TMC to allow the spare to be (mostly?) shared with corridor trains.

Once again, this is a predicated on them using Venture equipment. If the Canadian gets new equipment, it would probably be easiest if they just have extra locomotives, coaches and baggage cars added to that order for the White River, Skeena, and Churchill trains (with sleepers and dining cars added to the latter). Similarly if the Ocean gets new equipment, it would be easiest for the Northern Quebec trains to have extra locomotives, coaches and baggage cars added to that order.

I separated them as there is no guarantee that both the Canadian and Ocean will get new equipment. I think it is very likely that getting new equipment for the Canadian will be too expensive, so the government will spin it such that they will say that due to the iconic nature of the Canadian, it is important that it continues to use heritage equipment as it adds to the romance of the experience, or something along those lines, and then attempt to privatize the Canadian.

 

[Bordercollie]

Or… not convert the service to trainsets which are best maintained in a purpose built shop 400km away but instead existing equipment which can be maintained 130km away in North Bay. (And yes, what I mean by that is handing the service over to ONTC, along with a transfer of suitable and serviceable equipment and the Feds writing them a cheque for operations and CP/OVR passage). Whatever sense having shiny Ventures operate Northlander, it doesn’t seem to me that modern trainset furnishings are suited to bringing people to and from campgrounds, and paying Siemens design and qualify a baggage door to boot.

But those ONR trains are being maintained at TMC by Siemens, not in North Bay. So you would still need to go to TMC or Winnipeg if they choose the same type of equipment as their legacy fleet.

At which point you might as well extend the route to Winnipeg. Or every other train goes to Winnipeg.

 

[crs1026]

There’s a lot of wisdom in this case for kicking the can down the road by dispatching the simplest and most straightforward old stuff and waiting a decade.
By which time any number of worn out but equally simple and convenient solutions may be cheaply procured and refurb’ed for a further decade. Or, the service may no longer be needed as a few more roads are pushed into the area.
From what I have heard, the Venture cars have lots of modern high tech attributes which are utterly irrelevant to service duty hauling canoes in Northern Ontario. Just about any conveyance from hand me down box cars to end of life commuter cars will suffice as baggage space.
As for the coaches, far better to have something simple that can be field maintained locally than adding scope by inventing a case for new maintenance bases further away.
Note that while ONR may be procuring new trainsets for the premier long distance train, the workaday PBX is retaining the (perfectly good for that task) ex-GO cars. The business case for replacing the PBX fleet isn’t there notwithstanding the likelihood that this train will remain an essential service for the long term.
Perfection is the enemy of the good, and in this case I would not bother future proofing the White River train. It may not be needed for that much longer. Nor is there an upside to the market worth catering to.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

There’s a lot of wisdom in this case for kicking the can down the road by dispatching the simplest and most straightforward old stuff and waiting a decade.
By which time any number of worn out but equally simple and convenient solutions may be cheaply procured…. Or, the service may no longer be needed as a few more roads are pushed into the area.
From what I have heard, the Venture cars have lots of modern high tech attributes which are utterly irrelevant to service duty hauling canoes in Northern Ontario. Just about any conveyance from hand me down box cars to end of life commuter cars will suffice as baggage space.
As for the coaches, far better to have something simple that can be field maintained than inventing a case for new maintenance bases further away.
Note that while ONR may be procuring new trainsets for the premier long distance train, the workaday PBX is retaining the (perfectly good for that task) ex-GO cars.
Perfection is the enemy of the good, and in this case I would not bother future proofing the White River train. It may not be needed for that much longer.

- Paul

But there isn't much available on the used market unless you want Amfleets or Comets.

I don't think you want to be using BI-Levels on that route although you could swap out the seats for something more comfortable and attach a baggage car. Also using a can car would allow you to save on axles, and low level boarding is also useful.

Two BI-Levels one baggage car and a locomotive. You can install a cafe on the ground level. But it will be unique to all other equipment and which is not very different than what is going on now.

 

[dowlingm]

But those ONR trains are being maintained at TMC by Siemens, not in North Bay.

the difference being that the ONR sets for Northlander actually have Toronto as a terminus, so hauling equipment to shop not required (for scheduled work at any rate).

 

[Bordercollie]

the difference being that the ONR sets for Northlander actually have Toronto as a terminus, so hauling equipment to shop not required (for scheduled work at any rate).

Right which is why I suggested extending the train to Winnipeg or Sudbury since it needs to go there anyway.

 

[dowlingm]

Right which is why I suggested extending the train to Winnipeg or Sudbury since it needs to go there anyway.

If you mean “extend Sudbury-White River to North Bay” I would absolutely go for that, but the feds would probably want Ontario to cover net additional operational costs as not being required for current essential service, plus figuring out implications for crewing/fuelling.

 

[dowlingm]

Speaking of F40 control units, Amtrak California recently put a Venture set on the San Joaquin route with an NPCU because Siemens has not yet delivered the cabs, and presumably the end car has conventional couplers as mentioned by @smallspy upthread.

 

[Bordercollie]

If you mean “extend Sudbury-White River to North Bay” I would absolutely go for that, but the feds would probably want Ontario to cover net additional operational costs as not being required for current essential service, plus figuring out implications for crewing/fuelling.

That won't make a difference as it has been made clear that the One trains are being maintained at TMC. It has to be Toronto or Winnipeg.

 

[nfitz]

That won't make a difference as it has been made clear that the One trains are being maintained at TMC. It has to be Toronto or Winnipeg.

Winnipeg?

Surely Montreal would be far closer. Though still absurd.