[cplchanb]

How could it be manipulated in such a way that it would be bad for consumers? Faster trans?Lower fares? No baggage fees? Good food? Easy booking website?

Seriously, what could HFR do that would be bad for consumers and bad for other airlines?

It is time rail travel competes with air travel. Along the Corridor, they can.

if anything the potential kickbacks to AC as the partner will for sure rile up WJ and they will sue this as anti competition. optically this just screams conflict of interest no matter how clean they claim themselves to be.

 

[Urban Sky]

if anything the potential kickbacks to AC as the partner will for sure rile up WJ and they will sue this as anti competition. optically this just screams conflict of interest no matter how clean they claim themselves to be.

I‘m really puzzled as to how anyone at Cadence thought that bringing AC on board was a good way to promote their bid. The timing of disclosing this alliance (i.e., after the bids have been submitted) surely suggests that they themselves know that this looks rather fishy…

 

[micheal_can]

if anything the potential kickbacks to AC as the partner will for sure rile up WJ and they will sue this as anti competition. optically this just screams conflict of interest no matter how clean they claim themselves to be.

I can see how you mean. Maybe WJ should have gone in with another consortium. Part of me hates when big conglomerates happen. In this instance, since we have no competition with any other rail carrier in Canada, I am not so upset.

The question will be whether their bid is even that attractive. It may not and all this fuss was for nothing.

 

[guavadelic]

To be charitable, I can see AC (or another airline) wanting to get the inside track on the airport connectivity aspects of the project - not just codesharing but transfer to airports, timing of connections etc.
But being less charitable, I question how they can participate without creating a conflict of interest. As a consortium member they now likely have access to whatever data room Ottawa established for the project, as well as whatever IP and data that particular consortium has generated. That knowledge would be invaluable if they intend to lobby against parts or all of the project. And their self interest will very much affect their influence within the consortium.
I try to be charitable when I can, but this sure feels like the fox joining the consortium to bid on building a new henhouse

- Paul

This could just be a continuation of their approach to rail connections in Europe. AC started allowing the booking of train connections this year to destinations in Germany, France, Austria, and Switzerland. They likely saw the benefits after Deutsch Bahn joined Star Alliance in 2022 and became the first non-airline member.

There are definitely anti-competitive concerns with their involvement though. Non-Star Alliance members are likely to put up a stink if Cadence wins the bid.

 

[seanlucat]

One could argue that Westjet really won't care all that much as they've shifted to focus on Alberta/Western Canada. If anything they'd likely want to join a consortium for rail between Edmonton/Calgary/Banff whenever that happens.

 

[Urban Sky]

This could just be a continuation of their approach to rail connections in Europe. AC started allowing the booking of train connections this year to destinations in Germany, France, Austria, and Switzerland. They likely saw the benefits after Deutsch Bahn joined Star Alliance in 2022 and became the first non-airline member.

There are definitely anti-competitive concerns with their involvement though. Non-Star Alliance members are likely to put up a stink if Cadence wins the bid.

Repeat after me: an airline joining a bid to build and operate HFR has absolutely nothing to do with entering a code-share agreement with the future operator. You don’t have to become someone‘s business partner to negotiate special conditions as a client.

AC entering an HFR bid is about controlling who may enter a code-share agreement under what conditions, not about entering one…

 

[micheal_can]

Repeat after me: an airline joining a bid to build and operate HFR has absolutely nothing to do with entering a code-share agreement with the future operator. You don’t have to become someone‘s business partner to negotiate special conditions as a client.

AC entering an HFR bid is about controlling who may enter a code-share agreement under what conditions, not about entering one…

It s also the largest of the code share alliances. They could see rail as the next untapped market to enter and this bid is their way into Canada. If West Jet put a bid in for the C-E HSR, would that be bad?likely no worse than this. The problem goes back to how airports and railways operate in Canada. If our railways operated like our airports then this would be a non issue.

 

[cplchanb]

It s also the largest of the code share alliances. They could see rail as the next untapped market to enter and this bid is their way into Canada. If West Jet put a bid in for the C-E HSR, would that be bad?likely no worse than this. The problem goes back to how airports and railways operate in Canada. If our railways operated like our airports then this would be a non issue.

Or this could be like the american oil companies "buying" up the interurban rail lines back in the 50s and leading to the decay of the American commuter rail network in favour of interstates. Either way, I wouldn't trust air canada with anything near rail travel. Like accepting gifts from Greeks

 

[crs1026]

I can see some very useful synergies between the HxR product and airlines generally, and I can see AC wanting to be first in line especially given its domestic and international network extends so far.
But there is a real issue of trust here. Is AC committing that it will not use its inside knowledge to lobby against or limit the scope of HxR?
Suppose for instance that AC learned that the ROI on one part of the rail project was lower than other parts. Could it use that knowledge to discredit part or all of HxR?

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Or this could be like the american oil companies "buying" up the interurban rail lines back in the 50s and leading to the decay of the American commuter rail network in favour of interstates. Either way, I wouldn't trust air canada with anything near rail travel. Like accepting gifts from Greeks

That is a possibility. However,if we look at why the oil, tire and bus companies wanted it switched to buses it was because they could not make money on electric rails. Imagine being able to make money without ever leaving the ground. Would we say the same things if the government was looking to add passenger buses? I know it smells fishy. It might be, or it might be what is needed to bring better rail on the Corridor. And this could simply be much adieu about nothing if they don't win the bid.

 

[kEiThZ]

The problem is not their intentions, the problem is that there is no way for AC to prove to WestJet that they have any good intentions and that HFR will remain agnostic towards airlines. I don‘t see how this could be resolved by any other way than adding WestJet, but that still leaves KLM-AF and other foreign airlines at a disadvantage. So far HFR ticked all of fiscal conservative‘s boxes, whereas involving an ex-monopolist while shutting out truly private airlines raises a giant red flag.

Even if the involvement of AC was cancelled, I don’t see how any airline competitor could be assured that there aren‘t any hidden ways in which AC manipulated HFR. Honestly, I see the Cadence bid as irreversibly poisoned at this point and we can only hope that they won’t get awarded the HFR project…

I really wouldn't get too stressed over this. For other airlines, any connection is better, even if at a cost disadvantage to AC. Right now AFKL runs buses to from Dorval airport to Ottawa Tremblay. Them and a whole bunch of airlines would rather codeshare with rail even if it means paying an Air Canada extortion tax.

As for Air Canada's motivation? The Corridor is the busiest and most competitive aviation market in the country. And although AC dominates, it's a high cost low yield route. Rail might actually hurt others more than AC. HxR would do real damage to Porter and Westjet. All while feeding them highly lucrative long haul services at AC.

And there's both a pilot and short haul jet shortage that will take a decade to make real progress against. Air Canada would love to move those pax to rail and save both the pilot and slot pair for more lucrative long haul routes.

 

[Urban Sky]

I really wouldn't get too stressed over this.

I‘m not stressing out over this, I‘m just seeing the danger that if this bid was selected that endless litigation would delay or even derail the project. However, if these conflicts of interest get recognized and lead to a different bid getting selected, I would be very happy…

 

[reaperexpress]

You‘d be surprised how many of my former colleagues in commercial functions (scheduling — pricing — customer relations) came straight from Air Canada. One of them is even CCO today (excellent guy, one of the leading heads behind VIA‘s unprecedented growth since 2014):

Executive team | VIA Rail

VIA Rail’s executive team uses its leadership and expertise to help make VIA Rail’s vision—creating a smarter way to travel—a reality.

corpo.viarail.ca

That doesn't surprise me at all. On the contrary it helps explain why Via seems to copy the inefficient operating practices of airlines rather than looking to basically every other railway in the world

 

[leftfieldto]

Or this could be like the american oil companies "buying" up the interurban rail lines back in the 50s and leading to the decay of the American commuter rail network in favour of interstates. Either way, I wouldn't trust air canada with anything near rail travel. Like accepting gifts from Greeks

Thomas the Trojan Tank Engine!

 

[Urban Sky]

That doesn't surprise me at all. On the contrary it helps explain why Via seems to copy the inefficient operating practices of airlines rather than looking to basically every other railway in the world

Just out of curiosity: how many railroads do you know which have to deal with platform heights which range by a full meter (e.g., from 48 inches high to basically track level)? It‘s the infrastructure which drives boarding processes and you of all people here should know this very well by now…