lenaitch
Senior Member
Possibly - if the government was willing to write the cheque. Given Siemen's likely order book, if an approved fix (scrubber, shunt 'enhancer', etc.) was in the foreseeable future, it might be faster to simply wait it out.
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
Allandale25
Senior Member
https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/communiques/rail/2024/r23h0006-20241016.html
"incident where a Canadian National Railway Company (CN) freight train nearly collided head-on with a VIA Rail Canada Inc. (VIA) passenger train carrying 167 passengers near Cornwall, Ontario."
And further down:
"To date, no response has been received from the Minister regarding the concerns raised by the TSB."
"incident where a Canadian National Railway Company (CN) freight train nearly collided head-on with a VIA Rail Canada Inc. (VIA) passenger train carrying 167 passengers near Cornwall, Ontario."
And further down:
"To date, no response has been received from the Minister regarding the concerns raised by the TSB."
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Siemens is opening an additional factory for Venture coaches in Lexington North Carolina in a few months so they will be catching up their backlog pretty soon.
Via probably does need to order a few more Economy class coaches to lengthen some trains from 2+3 (business + economy) to 2+4. Reallocating Economy coaches from the existing 5-car sets wouldn't work since that would produce 2+2 sets which wouldn't make sense.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
In other news, would you like to ride train 26, train 26, train 26 or train 26?
https://www.viarail.ca/en/plan/train-schedules/ottawa-montreal-sainte-foy-quebec
All four columns have exactly the same departure times at all stations.
https://www.viarail.ca/en/plan/train-schedules/ottawa-montreal-sainte-foy-quebec
All four columns have exactly the same departure times at all stations.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Siemens will also have the challenge of ensuring standing up a new line in SC doesn’t compromise build quality. Boeing did not pull that off, to put it mildly.
Allandale25
Senior Member
Passenger trips to take longer in Ontario and Quebec after CN rule change: Via Rail
Passengers riding on Via Rail’s most heavily travelled corridor may endure a slower trip after Canadian National Railway Co. imposed restrictions on Via’s new trains.
www.cp24.com
"CN said it advised Via in October 2021 that operating trainsets with an axle count of 24 rather than 32 "could create issues." It said it imposed the rule requiring either a higher axle threshold or lower speeds in March on routes where the new fleet was running.
"This is a safety issue, both for the trains and their passengers, but also for pedestrians and motorists at crossings. Safety is not something we can compromise on, ever," said CN spokesman Jonathan Abecassis in an emailed statement."
cplchanb
Senior Member
rich coming from a company whos experienced numerous derailments with their trains annually...
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Let’s not forget about the red signals they hit, one of them almost causing a deadly collision with a VIA train, as reported in a TSB report this week which got conveniently drowned in CN making noise about how serious they are about safety, while fighting the any mandate to install any technology which could prevent such accidents:
On April 13, 2023, the CN train was travelling east on the south track of the Kingston Subdivision when it passed a Clear to Stop signal which indicates to proceed and prepare to stop at the next signal. The CN crew missed the signal, and as the train approached the Stop signal at Wesco, near Cornwall, they applied the train air brakes in emergency and made an emergency radio broadcast.
At the same time, the VIA passenger train was approaching Wesco on the same track, where it was lined to cross over to the north track. Upon hearing the emergency radio broadcast from the CN crew, the VIA train crew brought the passenger train to a controlled stop, coming to rest about 1100 feet from the CN train.
The investigation determined that the CN train crew was focused on preparing for future tasks which divided their attention from the primary task of following railway signal indications, resulting in the missed Clear to Stop indication. As a result, the crew was not prepared to stop at the next signal so when the emergency braking was applied, there was an insufficient distance to stop the train before passing the signal.
Risk of collision between two trains in Ontario highlights the need for physical safety defences on Canada’s railways - Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Today, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) released its investigation report (R23H0006) into an incident where a Canadian National Railway Company (CN) freight train nearly collided head-on with a VIA Rail Canada Inc. (VIA) passenger train carrying 167 passengers near Cornwall, Ontario.
roger1818
Senior Member
Let’s not forget about the red signals they hit, one of them almost causing a deadly collision with a VIA train, as reported in a TSB report this week which got conveniently drowned in CN making noise about how serious they are about safety, while fighting the any mandate to install any technology which could prevent such accidents:
On April 13, 2023, the CN train was travelling east on the south track of the Kingston Subdivision when it passed a Clear to Stop signal which indicates to proceed and prepare to stop at the next signal. The CN crew missed the signal, and as the train approached the Stop signal at Wesco, near Cornwall, they applied the train air brakes in emergency and made an emergency radio broadcast.
At the same time, the VIA passenger train was approaching Wesco on the same track, where it was lined to cross over to the north track. Upon hearing the emergency radio broadcast from the CN crew, the VIA train crew brought the passenger train to a controlled stop, coming to rest about 1100 feet from the CN train.
The investigation determined that the CN train crew was focused on preparing for future tasks which divided their attention from the primary task of following railway signal indications, resulting in the missed Clear to Stop indication. As a result, the crew was not prepared to stop at the next signal so when the emergency braking was applied, there was an insufficient distance to stop the train before passing the signal.
Risk of collision between two trains in Ontario highlights the need for physical safety defences on Canada’s railways - Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Today, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) released its investigation report (R23H0006) into an incident where a Canadian National Railway Company (CN) freight train nearly collided head-on with a VIA Rail Canada Inc. (VIA) passenger train carrying 167 passengers near Cornwall, Ontario.www.tsb.gc.ca
I sent my MP an email about this TSB investigation report yesterday. I'm not holding my breath on him actually seeing it though, as it will likely be intercepted by his handlers and I expect that I will receive a form letter response, but you never know.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
If CN's equipment can't reliably detect trains with 24 axles, that's pretty sad. Globally it's common to have trains with as few as 6 axles, and sometimes even 4.Passenger trips to take longer in Ontario and Quebec after CN rule change: Via Rail
Passengers riding on Via Rail’s most heavily travelled corridor may endure a slower trip after Canadian National Railway Co. imposed restrictions on Via’s new trains.
"CN said it advised Via in October 2021 that operating trainsets with an axle count of 24 rather than 32 "could create issues." It said it imposed the rule requiring either a higher axle threshold or lower speeds in March on routes where the new fleet was running.
"This is a safety issue, both for the trains and their passengers, but also for pedestrians and motorists at crossings. Safety is not something we can compromise on, ever," said CN spokesman Jonathan Abecassis in an emailed statement."
If they say they need 32 axles (a loco + 7 coaches) that's a pretty damning indictment of their own detection equipment, even if the wheels/axles of venture coaches are harder to detect
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Thank you for pointing out that a massive proportion of train movements worldwide have less than 32 axles! If it can’t reliably detect a train, then the problem is with your train detection equipment, not the train…
Let’s also not forget this extremely leightweight 4 axle train working one of their main lines in BC:
Canada’s greatest hidden rail trip
Weaving along a narrow ledge between razor-sharp mountains and a gigantic, glittering lake, the tiny, two-car Kaoham Shuttle is a train lover's dream.
www.bbc.com
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lenaitch
Senior Member
To be fair, from Google sat images, it doesn't look like it encounters any signalized crossing (or hardly any crossings at all for that matter). From what I have read, the shuttle operates at a fairly sedate speed and the line is decidedly low tech.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
The point remains that if they procure equipment which is unsuitable for the kind of train movements they will foreseeably have to handle, then the problem are CN’s procurement practices, not those of VIA…
just east of the creek
Senior Member
From Trains.com
MONTREAL — When safety is on the table, there can be no debate about measures taken to ensure it.
So when Canadian National informed VIA Rail Canada last Friday that all Venture trainsets of less than 32 axles could not operate at track speed across highway crossings equipped with warning devices triggered by Grade Crossing Predictors, the operator had no recourse but to immediately comply [see “CN imposes axle-count restriction …,” Trains News Wire Oct. 14, 2024].
Still unanswered is why CN chose the beginning of Canada’s Thanksgiving Day holiday weekend to impose the restriction and what role the railroad’s track maintenance or other factors might have prompted the decision.
In response to a News Wire request for more details, a VIA spokesman says, “No incidents or issues at level crossings have been reported to VIA Rail since the Venture trains have been in operation.” The trainsets were tested on all routes to the satisfaction of regulatory agency Transport Canada and host railroads before VIA’s acceptance in 2021, and have operated in revenue service since Nov. 8, 2022, “with CN’s collaboration and approval.”
Canadian National spokeswoman Ashley Michnowski, responding to the same inquiry, explains, “We advised VIA very early on in the process (October 2021) that operating at a 24-axle count could create issues.” This was confirmed, she says, in March 2024. “We immediately notified VIA and took necessary measures to protect the public by reverting to CN’s 32-axle minimum requirement or imposing restrictions on the designated routes that VIA was operating this fleet on.”
VIA tells News Wire slowdowns at crossings were indeed mandated then on portions of the Montreal-Quebec City corridor, but reiterated that CN failed to divulge any specific incident or incidents where the crossing activation issue, known as loss of shunt, occurred. And that was in March.
A Budd-built HEP-2 coach and three “Light Rapid Comfortable” cars await departure from Ottawa to Toronto on Sept. 30, 2024. VIA has routinely operated the LRCs in four-car sets for decades without incurring loss-of-shunt incidents. Bob Johnston
Canadian National only said, “it was discovered on Oct. 11, 2024, that these Venture trainsets were operating in expanded service with crossings which may experience shunt loss and thus be unprotected, CN took immediate measures to issue the proper instructions to protect the safety of train operations and crossings.”
Engineers must slow their trains enough to visually confirm that warning devices are operating at least 20 seconds prior to the train’s approach to crossings. A Transport Canada official told a reporter for broadcaster CTV that this was 72 kilometers per hour (about 44 mph).
Michnowski’s statement further notes that “shunt enhancer antennas” are in use in the United Kingdom. The locomotive-mounted device appears to be the railroad’s blanket solution to otherwise unexplained instances where loss of shunt on certain CN track segments — but not others — has resulted on equipment-specific and axle-count requirements if maximum authorized track speeds are to be maintained.
In the U.S., a years-long mandate requiring seven Superliner on Amtrak’s Chicago-Carbondale, Ill., regional route has prevented 14 long-distance cars from providing much needed capacity elsewhere [see “Short consists constrain Capitol Limited …,” News Wire, Jan. 19, 2024].
Meanwhile in Canada, only CN has imposed the speed restriction on Ventures. A recent News Wire round trip between Dorval, Que., and Ottawa confirmed VIA continues to operate the trainsets at maximum speeds up to 100 mph across highway crossings on track it owns and maintains after leaving CN’s Montreal-Toronto main line at Coteau, Que.
Acording to VIA, host railroads Metrolinx in the Toronto area and Canadian Pacific around Smiths Falls, Ont., have also not imposed Venture-only restrictions.
Today (Thursday, Oct. 17), train No. 22 from Ottawa was 10 minutes late leaving Coteau on the all-VIA route. On CN, it departed Montreal 40 minutes late, was 1 hour, 20 minutes behind schedule at St. Hyacinthe, Que., and arrived at Quebec City at 1:59 p.m. instead of 11:40 a.m., well after any passengers’ lunch appointments. In the other direction, VIA No. 35 was an hour late over CN leaving Coteau, but the train lost only 8 minutes more on the way to Ottawa.
A trainload of passengers await the boarding announcement at Ottawa on Sept. 30 for Venture-equipped train No. 26 headed for Montreal and Quebec City. Travelers on the route continue to be severely impacted by tardy arrivals. Bob Johnston
MONTREAL — When safety is on the table, there can be no debate about measures taken to ensure it.
So when Canadian National informed VIA Rail Canada last Friday that all Venture trainsets of less than 32 axles could not operate at track speed across highway crossings equipped with warning devices triggered by Grade Crossing Predictors, the operator had no recourse but to immediately comply [see “CN imposes axle-count restriction …,” Trains News Wire Oct. 14, 2024].
Still unanswered is why CN chose the beginning of Canada’s Thanksgiving Day holiday weekend to impose the restriction and what role the railroad’s track maintenance or other factors might have prompted the decision.
In response to a News Wire request for more details, a VIA spokesman says, “No incidents or issues at level crossings have been reported to VIA Rail since the Venture trains have been in operation.” The trainsets were tested on all routes to the satisfaction of regulatory agency Transport Canada and host railroads before VIA’s acceptance in 2021, and have operated in revenue service since Nov. 8, 2022, “with CN’s collaboration and approval.”
Canadian National spokeswoman Ashley Michnowski, responding to the same inquiry, explains, “We advised VIA very early on in the process (October 2021) that operating at a 24-axle count could create issues.” This was confirmed, she says, in March 2024. “We immediately notified VIA and took necessary measures to protect the public by reverting to CN’s 32-axle minimum requirement or imposing restrictions on the designated routes that VIA was operating this fleet on.”
VIA tells News Wire slowdowns at crossings were indeed mandated then on portions of the Montreal-Quebec City corridor, but reiterated that CN failed to divulge any specific incident or incidents where the crossing activation issue, known as loss of shunt, occurred. And that was in March.
Canadian National only said, “it was discovered on Oct. 11, 2024, that these Venture trainsets were operating in expanded service with crossings which may experience shunt loss and thus be unprotected, CN took immediate measures to issue the proper instructions to protect the safety of train operations and crossings.”
Engineers must slow their trains enough to visually confirm that warning devices are operating at least 20 seconds prior to the train’s approach to crossings. A Transport Canada official told a reporter for broadcaster CTV that this was 72 kilometers per hour (about 44 mph).
Michnowski’s statement further notes that “shunt enhancer antennas” are in use in the United Kingdom. The locomotive-mounted device appears to be the railroad’s blanket solution to otherwise unexplained instances where loss of shunt on certain CN track segments — but not others — has resulted on equipment-specific and axle-count requirements if maximum authorized track speeds are to be maintained.
In the U.S., a years-long mandate requiring seven Superliner on Amtrak’s Chicago-Carbondale, Ill., regional route has prevented 14 long-distance cars from providing much needed capacity elsewhere [see “Short consists constrain Capitol Limited …,” News Wire, Jan. 19, 2024].
Meanwhile in Canada, only CN has imposed the speed restriction on Ventures. A recent News Wire round trip between Dorval, Que., and Ottawa confirmed VIA continues to operate the trainsets at maximum speeds up to 100 mph across highway crossings on track it owns and maintains after leaving CN’s Montreal-Toronto main line at Coteau, Que.
Acording to VIA, host railroads Metrolinx in the Toronto area and Canadian Pacific around Smiths Falls, Ont., have also not imposed Venture-only restrictions.
Today (Thursday, Oct. 17), train No. 22 from Ottawa was 10 minutes late leaving Coteau on the all-VIA route. On CN, it departed Montreal 40 minutes late, was 1 hour, 20 minutes behind schedule at St. Hyacinthe, Que., and arrived at Quebec City at 1:59 p.m. instead of 11:40 a.m., well after any passengers’ lunch appointments. In the other direction, VIA No. 35 was an hour late over CN leaving Coteau, but the train lost only 8 minutes more on the way to Ottawa.
smallspy
Senior Member
That equipment was replaced several years ago with a high-rail school/activity bus.Thank you for pointing out that a massive proportion of train movements worldwide have less than 32 axles! If it can’t reliably detect a train, then the problem is with your train detection equipment, not the train…
Let’s also not forget this extremely leightweight 4 axle train working one of their main lines in BC:
Canada’s greatest hidden rail trip
Weaving along a narrow ledge between razor-sharp mountains and a gigantic, glittering lake, the tiny, two-car Kaoham Shuttle is a train lover's dream.
In any case, it wasn't considered a train but a "track unit", and so was not required to shunt any signals.
Dan