[crs1026]

I knew it was the mainline, not that unfamiliar with its limitations given I ride from Hamilton and Kitchener often. But I agree- shocking but impressive they only 'need' a single track with trains every 20 minutes or so (it felt like that, anyway). Obviously they had passing tracks, but still.

I should also note I was impressed with the speed of the line, given it's not 'meant' for it. In retrospect, with some pinpoint infrastructure, I can see how semi-usable passenger service can operate on such shared corridors, albeit with more coordination between CN/whichever public operator. For me, it showed the amount of new infra necessary needn't always be a mountain over a molehill.

If you look at where the single track sections are on the Halton Sub, most are over very deep river valleys (Tansley, Stewarttown, Humber) or smaller waterways (Speyside) where doubling the line would be hugely costly and likely trigger extensive environmental processes.

On a 24-hour basis, the line is still well within the capacity of a properly signalled mixed single/double track line with long passing track sections and favourable track speeds. But it's not designed to handle multiple passenger trains on top of that freight traffic, and the passengers happened to need the line just when CN had its most busy periods in the day. I give CN credit for accommodating VIA both west and east of Union during the recent work blocks on the Lakeshore.

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

As if things can't get worse - I am told that CN has lowered the zone speed limit along the Guelph Sub west of Kitchener, which is used by VIA trains 84 and 87..... to between 20 and 30 mph.

One has to assume that CN is applying leverage towards...... something.

This is patently absurd, but the indifference of Ottawa and Queens Park to the potential of this route (other than as a short term self serving GO train photo op) just infuriates me.

But it is what it is.

- Paul

PS - maybe we need a media covered cycling event with a challenge: who can beat the train from London to St Mary's on their bicycle?

View attachment 615995

The only thing I can think of is that CN doesn't want to own the GEXR track anymore and wants VIA to purchase it like they did for the track to Ottawa? They clearly have no interest in repairing the track, and VIA would have/want to to get things back to a good speed.

It could be a way to try to negotiate a better price rather than saying "We dont want this" because saying that is basically admitting "name your price"

Rather they want VIA to come ask THEM to buy it, which puts the negotiation ability in CN's favour.

I am curious, lets say VIA bought it and replaced it with Class 6 110mph track, how much time would be shaved off the London-Toronto trains that go through Kitchener?

 

[micheal_can]

The only thing I can think of is that CN doesn't want to own the GEXR track anymore and wants VIA to purchase it like they did for the track to Ottawa? They clearly have no interest in repairing the track, and VIA would have/want to to get things back to a good speed.

It could be a way to try to negotiate a better price rather than saying "We dont want this" because saying that is basically admitting "name your price"

Rather they want VIA to come ask THEM to buy it, which puts the negotiation ability in CN's favour.

I am curious, lets say VIA bought it and replaced it with Class 6 110mph track, how much time would be shaved off the London-Toronto trains that go through Kitchener?

Would this be a path to HSR in SWO? They do own the Chatham Sub from Chatham to Windsor.

 

[dowlingm]

The only thing I can think of is that CN doesn't want to own the GEXR track anymore and wants VIA to purchase it like they did for the track to Ottawa? They clearly have no interest in repairing the track, and VIA would have/want to to get things back to a good speed.

It could be a way to try to negotiate a better price rather than saying "We dont want this" because saying that is basically admitting "name your price"

Rather they want VIA to come ask THEM to buy it, which puts the negotiation ability in CN's favour.

I am curious, lets say VIA bought it and replaced it with Class 6 110mph track, how much time would be shaved off the London-Toronto trains that go through Kitchener?

What do you think the chances are of VIA buying track for 110mph and then have Metrolinx and CN telling them they can have 2-3 slots (between Kitchener and Union) per direction, per day, tops?

The thing about the Kitchener-London trackage (other than Doug Ford complicating things with his abortive London train) is that even if you buy the track, you still have any service CN wants grandfathered, and GEXR's yard activities at Stratford.

 

[micheal_can]

What do you think the chances are of VIA buying track for 110mph and then have Metrolinx and CN telling them they can have 2-3 slots (between Kitchener and Union) per direction, per day, tops?

The thing about the Kitchener-London trackage (other than Doug Ford complicating things with his abortive London train) is that even if you buy the track, you still have any service CN wants grandfathered, and GEXR's yard activities at Stratford.

Why would they be grandfathered and not have Via's service also grandfathered?

 

[dowlingm]

Why would they be grandfathered and not have Via's service also grandfathered?

Because VIA are a tenant, and can only rely on retaining what their existing agreements allow them have. I haven't read those agreements but given recent history I doubt VIA have needed more than 3 slots/direction/day in recent years.

 

[micheal_can]

Because VIA are a tenant, and can only rely on retaining what their existing agreements allow them have. I haven't read those agreements but given recent history I doubt VIA have needed more than 3 slots/direction/day in recent years.

The way you phased it, it read as though if CN wants future service west of Kitchener on Via owned track it must be given when if Via wanted more service between Georgetown and Brampton that it can be ignored. Did I misunderstand you?

 

[Urban Sky]

I am curious, lets say VIA bought it and replaced it with Class 6 110mph track, how much time would be shaved off the London-Toronto trains that go through Kitchener?

I have attempted some table-top estimates in my early pre-VIA days, even if I would be slightly bullish now that I’ve actually had the chance to work with professional rail simulation software designed for making such travel time calculations:

High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

MrsNesbitt is right...........sometimes you need to destroy something to fix it. The problem is that in terms of infrastructure in Canada we tend to just let things rot and fixing them usually means nothing more than a Royal Commission which is always due out after the next election. God knows...

urbantoronto.ca

 

[robmausser]

What do you think the chances are of VIA buying track for 110mph and then have Metrolinx and CN telling them they can have 2-3 slots (between Kitchener and Union) per direction, per day, tops?

The thing about the Kitchener-London trackage (other than Doug Ford complicating things with his abortive London train) is that even if you buy the track, you still have any service CN wants grandfathered, and GEXR's yard activities at Stratford.

I was just curious on the speed improvement really, I doubt VIA would convert to Class 6. They most likely would fix the track to at least Class 4 though

Absolutely you have to allow for CN trains, but there are something like 2 trains a day at most on that line. Thats why CN doesnt want to put the money into fixing it.

Furthermore, if VIA owns the line, they get priority. Freight has to wait for VIA, not the other way around.

Even furthermore, if VIA could get a good speed on the GEXR line, they would most likely move some of their Windsor - London - Toronto trains onto it and off the CN mainline.

This would provide more ridership through the KW area, and would mean they could stop paying CN so much for their mainline rights.

Currently there are 5 trains a day from London on the CN mainline 1 on GEXR. I would imagine they could split it 3 and 3, and maybe add a 2nd Sarnia train as well.

 

[Toronto1834]

I was just curious on the speed improvement really, I doubt VIA would convert to Class 6. They most likely would fix the track to at least Class 4 though

Absolutely you have to allow for CN trains, but there are something like 2 trains a day at most on that line. Thats why CN doesnt want to put the money into fixing it.

Furthermore, if VIA owns the line, they get priority. Freight has to wait for VIA, not the other way around.

Even furthermore, if VIA could get a good speed on the GEXR line, they would most likely move some of their Windsor - London - Toronto trains onto it and off the CN mainline.

This would provide more ridership through the KW area, and would mean they could stop paying CN so much for their mainline rights.

Currently there are 5 trains a day from London on the CN mainline 1 on GEXR. I would imagine they could split it 3 and 3, and maybe add a 2nd Sarnia train as well.

Because the scheduled time is so much more on the GEXR route, I always assumed it was far longer in terms of milage. I was recently surprised to discover the northern route is actually a shorter distance to London from Union Station. I wonder if the scheduled time using the GEXR route would match the CN mainline route simply from upgrading trackage between Stratford and London. That seems unlikely as the time difference is currently 1.5 hours. I wonder what other works would be required?

 

[robmausser]

Because the scheduled time is so much more on the GEXR route, I always assumed it was far longer in terms of milage. I was recently surprised to discover the northern route is actually a shorter distance to London from Union Station. I wonder if the scheduled time using the GEXR route would match the CN mainline route simply from upgrading trackage between Stratford and London. That seems unlikely as the time difference is currently 1.5 hours. I wonder what other works would be required?

As far as I know, the section MX owns from Kitchener to Brampton...ish, is still not in the absolute best shape. They've made repairs and upgrades here and there, but its not like its Class 6 or even 5 rail or anything. So the speeds overall on the CN mainline are still much faster.

Also there are more station stops on the GEXR route. Its definitely a milk run. Doesn't have to be for every train though, could have some express ones.

 

[Urban Sky]

Because the scheduled time is so much more on the GEXR route, I always assumed it was far longer in terms of milage.

TRTO-LNDN via the Guelph Sub is only 10 km (or 5.5%) longer than via the Dundas Sub (195 vs. 185 km) and hits the relevant cities (Brampton, Guelph, Kitchener) rather than avoiding them (Hamilton). Once Metrolinx has figured out a way to sneak somewhat frequent passenger trains past Georgetown, it will be an absolute nobrainer to use the Northern route for intercity trains into SWO…

 

[dowlingm]

TRTO-LNDN via the Guelph Sub is only 10 km (or 5.5%) longer than via the Dundas Sub (195 vs. 185 km) and hits the relevant cities (Brampton, Guelph, Kitchener) rather than avoiding them (Hamilton). Once Metrolinx has figured out a way to sneak somewhat frequent passenger trains past Georgetown, it will be an absolute nobrainer to use the Northern route for intercity trains into SWO…

But Woodstock, Brantford, Ingersoll are solely dependent on VIA, where the above mentioned cities also have GO service.

If there is a notion to have medium intercity frequency service which will compete with Metrolinx for passengers, platforms and track slots between Union and Kitchener, I think Metrolinx would be entitled to ask what federal funds will be contributing to capacity to enable that.

 

[crs1026]

TRTO-LNDN via the Guelph Sub is only 10 km (or 5.5%) longer than via the Dundas Sub (195 vs. 185 km) and hits the relevant cities (Brampton, Guelph, Kitchener) rather than avoiding them (Hamilton). Once Metrolinx has figured out a way to sneak somewhat frequent passenger trains past Georgetown, it will be an absolute nobrainer to use the Northern route for intercity trains into SWO…

The Stratford route could easily be upgraded to the same standard as Brockville-Ottawa or Ottawa- Coteau. If this were done, it would provide much more opportunity for growth in service than the Brantford line, where there is justification for CN to oppose additional trains on its main route.

Fixing up Kitchener-Stratford-London could likely be done faster and sooner than the GO construction on the Halton Sub east of Silver, which are what is holding up better service on the whole line. The bureaucracy will want this deferred to a "Phase II" once the Halton work is complete, but I would argue the reverse - get it done now so that when the Halton work is complete, the whole line is ready to go.

I have no idea how much capacity GO has negotiated based on the new work on the Halton, but I do not feel I am in fantasy territory by suggesting that Toronto-Kitchener-London could immediately support hourly regional service, with some of those trains continuing on to Windsor or Sarnia. If ML and Ottawa are not working towards this end, it's a tragedy.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

But Woodstock, Brantford, Ingersoll are solely dependent on VIA, where the above mentioned cities also have GO service.

Sure, but that is exclusively the problem of provincial and sub-provincial governments (just like GO already provides bus service to Brantford), not of VIA Rail or the federal taxpayers…

If there is a notion to have medium intercity frequency service which will compete with Metrolinx for passengers, platforms and track slots between Union and Kitchener, I think Metrolinx would be entitled to ask what federal funds will be contributing to capacity to enable that.

Agreed, the federal government should chip in, but it will be substantially cheaper and easier to fix 13 miles of Halton Sub by joining forces with the Province of Ontario than 77 miles of the Dundas Sub alone…