[lenaitch]

I realize my wording wasn't very precise, but what I meant is replacing natural gas power generation with renewables. Solar and wind backed up by large scale power storage. Solar and wind have become some of the cheapest ways to generate electricity and power storage is getting cheaper every year thanks to advances in battery technology.

To be fair, that's happening - renewables are increasing, gas is decreasing, and coal is in the midst of collapse. There needs to be an effort to reduce gas use in other areas too.

I think improvements in energy storage is the key to wind and solar in playing a bigger role. Without it, I'm not sure there is enough surface or Europe to paper with panels and wind mills and accommodate their inherent inconsistencies.

It would be nice as well if they were able to make significant advancements in tidal or wave power. I know the pilot project in the Bay of Fundy looked promising until the tide literally torn the turbine apart and the company ran out of money. There is another demonstrator staring up using a different approach.

 

[Richard White]

I think improvements in energy storage is the key to wind and solar in playing a bigger role. Without it, I'm not sure there is enough surface or Europe to paper with panels and wind mills and accommodate their inherent inconsistencies.

It would be nice as well if they were able to make significant advancements in tidal or wave power. I know the pilot project in the Bay of Fundy looked promising until the tide literally torn the turbine apart and the company ran out of money. There is another demonstrator staring up using a different approach.

I recall from a recent David Attenborough documentary where he spoke of cables being run across Europe from the Sahara solar energy farms eventually. Better energy storage is needed, I am not a physicist but I can only imagine there would some level of energy loss running power along a cable from the Sahara to mainland Europe.

Some places could make this work though. Hungary has amble space in the Carpathian Basin, The Netherlands has the coastal areas. Realistically though until fusion energy is a thing there or battery tech progresses Europe is reliant on Russia for fuel.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Pardon my ignorance in European geography but is there any geothermal potential?

"Magic"

 

[lenaitch]

"Magic"

Ha. I get how it works, I was just wondering if there was anywhere in Europe where it let itself to it without massively deep drilling, like Iceland.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Ha. I get how it works, I was just wondering if there was anywhere in Europe where it let itself to it without massively deep drilling, like Iceland.

Oh....ok...just so we're clear, I wasn't trying to be funny....I have too much respect for you.

I'm not sure if there are any spots around the centre of the continent that are too easy to access, no. I just know it's a very viable alternative to polluting the air.

 

[afransen]

As someone who has heated a cottage electrically I can safely say electric heating is not cheap.

What most European households use is a radiator system. Not the clunky 1950s cast iron style radiators but a more modern device. Usually they are electric but central district heating is common in some European cities.

Air source heat pump is where it's at. Roughly 3x the efficiency of resistive electric heat.

 

[lenaitch]

Air source heat pump is where it's at. Roughly 3x the efficiency of resistive electric heat.

Perhaps more cost effective, because resistive heat is theoretically 100% efficient because all energy input is converted to heat (excluding things like line losses, reactance, etc.). One problem with air source heat pumps is they loose ground in very low temps when back-up (usually resistive) heating has to kick in. Not so bad in southern Ontario but likely a problem in colder climes. They also require ducting which might not be feasible in some of the older European buildings. There might be hydronic heat pump systems but I'm not familiar.

 

[afransen]

In very cold climates ground source heat pumps might make sense. But that will require a lot of innovation in installing the wells, which is far too bespoke of a job. Some companies are innovating in this space. Air source heat pumps have improved significantly. Fujitsu makes minisplit units that work down to -26C, which would work well for basically anywhere in Europe.

 

[lenaitch]

In very cold climates ground source heat pumps might make sense. But that will require a lot of innovation in installing the wells, which is far too bespoke of a job. Some companies are innovating in this space. Air source heat pumps have improved significantly. Fujitsu makes minisplit units that work down to -26C, which would work well for basically anywhere in Europe.

A friend's spouse is in the business. Significant up-front costs, especially if you have to drill vertical. I don't know what the payback curve looks like.

 

[Northern Light]

This is quite the topic diversion...............but I'm learning something............so continue all! LOL

PS.....from Wikipedia:

An air source heat pump designed specifically for very cold climates can extract useful heat from ambient air as cold −30 °C (−22 °F). Manufacturers include Mitsubishi and Fujitsu.[3] One Mitsubishi model provides heat at −35 °C, but the coefficient of performance (COP) drops to 0.9, indicating that resistance heating would be more efficient at that temperature

 

[lenaitch]

This is quite the topic diversion...............but I'm learning something............so continue all! LOL

PS.....from Wikipedia:

An air source heat pump designed specifically for very cold climates can extract useful heat from ambient air as cold −30 °C (−22 °F). Manufacturers include Mitsubishi and Fujitsu.[3] One Mitsubishi model provides heat at −35 °C, but the coefficient of performance (COP) drops to 0.9, indicating that resistance heating would be more efficient at that temperature

Ya, I tend to follow discussions down rabbit holes until a Mod slaps us.

 

[lenaitch]

In an attempt to redeem myself by getting back closer to the thread topic, Germany and probably most of western Europe are in a big of a geopolitical bind WRT Russia and energy. It's a relatively small landmass (in relation to say, us) with a lot of people. I don't get the sense that it geologically lends itself to terrestrial oil and gas production and for those that have coastlines, many are fairly limited. They are largely net importers.

Germany has made the decision to wind down their nuclear program, currently about 12% of production. Wind power makes up about 20% of their production although, as recently demonstrated, they lacked wind (contrary to what some were reporting, the turbines were not frozen - that's apparently currently a Texas problem). Solar is behind at about 7-8%, but can be impacted by snow and the reality that solar energy in northern latitudes is lower. They will have to make up for both reduced nuclear production and the winding up of Dutch gas production in the late-2020s. Energy is going to have to come from somewhere, and Russia knows it.

Gross electricity production in Germany

Tables on the subject: This table contains gross electricity production in Germany from 2018 to 2020.

www.destatis.de

 

[afransen]

This is quite the topic diversion...............but I'm learning something............so continue all! LOL

PS.....from Wikipedia:

An air source heat pump designed specifically for very cold climates can extract useful heat from ambient air as cold −30 °C (−22 °F). Manufacturers include Mitsubishi and Fujitsu.[3] One Mitsubishi model provides heat at −35 °C, but the coefficient of performance (COP) drops to 0.9, indicating that resistance heating would be more efficient at that temperature

I can't imagine a house in a place that sees -35C temps that doesn't also have a gas fireplace! Could also have a resistive heater to supplement an air source heat pump on very cold nights, but unless you live in Yellowknife it won't get used much.

 

[lenaitch]

I can't imagine a house in a place that sees -35C temps that doesn't also have a gas fireplace! Could also have a resistive heater to supplement an air source heat pump on very cold nights, but unless you live in Yellowknife it won't get used much.

Ok, to continue off-topic, a lot of the places in Canada, outside of large cities like Winnipeg or Edmonton that would see temps like that, likely don't have natural gas, and at those temps, propane (assuming such service is available) is approaching its boiling point of -42*C and would operate very poorly if at all. Although there are advances in heat pump, most current residential air heat pump systems require a supplementary heat source at around -15*C, which is not an unusual temperature even for central Ontario.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Interesting to note is that 90% of Europe has a much warmer climate than both Canada and Russia so all this heat pump and geothermal stuff is a lot more viable there.