[Tewder]

Just boycotting Walmart is an easy feel-good thing to do, yet achieves absolutely nothing in whatever they seem to pretend to be doing.

It makes me feel good. I have no delusions about changing the world but I get to feel 'good' about where I spend my money... and it aint at Walmart honey!

One obviously can't always make the choices one would like to but you can make an effort to spend 'thoughtfully'... and my first thoughts are what's right for my community and my country, not China. Sorry.

 

[waltthizzney]

how about a costco downtown? people love it in vancouver

 

[RichA]

Then you'd get people whining because the poor can't afford the membership fee

how about a costco downtown? people love it in vancouver

I think it's about $60 now.

 

[Tewder]

Who in Toronto has the space for all those bulk goods, other than the wealthy who don't need the savings anyway?

 

[kkgg7]

It makes me feel good. I have no delusions about changing the world but I get to feel 'good' about where I spend my money... and it aint at Walmart honey!

One obviously can't always make the choices one would like to but you can make an effort to spend 'thoughtfully'... and my first thoughts are what's right for my community and my country, not China. Sorry.

Well, you are only lying to yourself. As long as you are still buying tons of stuff from poor nations, not just China, it really doesn't make a difference. As I said, Walmart is no worse than Canadian Tire, or Sears, or the Bay when it comes to importing cheap goods. So when you are buying all those Made-in-China stuff outside Walmart, you are still contributing to China's employment and GDP.

 

[Tewder]

I'm not lying to myself because I'm aware that most places are sourcing from China (or wherever), but I make the choices where I can. You'd be surprised what you can source here that is made here and that isn't always the more expensive option...

Case in point: I was at a small independent shop recently looking to buy some baby clothes as a gift when I noticed that all the labels were saying 'Made in China'. When I complained to the store owner she took me throughout the store showing me all of the locally made items available and I ended up buying a lovely receiving blanket made by a lady in Ancaster and some clothes from a small company in in Montreal... and guess what? The prices for the local items were actually on par with the overseas stuff that had just been marked up more! In other words, the store owner likely wanted me to buy the higher margin foreign items but as a consumer I made it quite clear what I wanted.

The more you look the more you can do this with many things you buy!

 

[Tuscani01]

Well, you are only lying to yourself. As long as you are still buying tons of stuff from poor nations, not just China, it really doesn't make a difference. As I said, Walmart is no worse than Canadian Tire, or Sears, or the Bay when it comes to importing cheap goods. So when you are buying all those Made-in-China stuff outside Walmart, you are still contributing to China's employment and GDP.

Not entirely true. Walmart is one of the worst. Canadian Tire imports 48% of its product from Asia. Walmart's rate is much higher. Sears would also be quite high, but I believe HBC likes to stay close to home. The difference between all the companies is the fact that CTC and HBC do their sourcing from here in Canada, and for here in Canada, while Walmart and Sears Canada have no control over their sourcing. Most of it happens in their respective offices in the USA. When ordering for stores in both Canada and the USA, you have no choice but to go with large suppliers, and China (Asia in general) is where the suppliers are.

 

[kkgg7]

Not entirely true. Walmart is one of the worst. Canadian Tire imports 48% of its product from Asia. Walmart's rate is much higher. Sears would also be quite high, but I believe HBC likes to stay close to home. The difference between all the companies is the fact that CTC and HBC do their sourcing from here in Canada, and for here in Canada, while Walmart and Sears Canada have no control over their sourcing. Most of it happens in their respective offices in the USA. When ordering for stores in both Canada and the USA, you have no choice but to go with large suppliers, and China (Asia in general) is where the suppliers are.

You guys contradicting yourselves sometimes. You hate Walmart because you don't like its use of cheap labour and say Walmart exploit those poor souls by paying them horrible wages. On the other hand, Walmart offers tens of thousands of jobs to developing countries, including China, pulling tens of thousands out of poverty, not into it. These people may end up picking trash on the street if not for Walmart. So you guys refuse to shop there, are you supporting or depriving of human rights here??

Since 1978, when market-oriented economic reforms began, China has experienced the most rapid and sustained increase in human prosperity in world history. According to the World Bank, more than 600 million people have been lifted out of poverty during this period. The number of Chinese living in poverty has fallen from 65% of the population to around 10%. In both absolute numbers and percentage of population this is unprecedented, and dwarfs the combined effects of all other poverty reduction programs undertaken by anyone, anywhere in the world, over the past 30 years. Yet you guys choose to ignore the fact, and keep the China bashing, just because, I guess, workers are not paid $40,000 a year with 3 weeks of vacation as Canadians are?

Wal-Mart now employs over 80,000 people directly – but this number is inconsequential next to the number of people who work in factories that supply Wal-Mart products. The company has more than 20,000 Chinese suppliers, which employ several million people. Using standard employment and income multipliers, Wal-Mart can be credited with the creation of as many as 10 million Chinese jobs and contributing as much as $15 billion annually to China’s GDP. That’s enough to keep 32 million Chinese above the poverty line.

So on the one hand, you despise Walmart because you think it treats employees unfairly. On the other, you'd rather it bankrupt so that those factories workers will have no job and go back to the fields to plant corn for $500 a year?

I am not a fan of Walmart and shopped there for less than 5 times in my life. What bothers me is the logic implied in these irrational statement and action. So you think the right thing to do is for Walmart to hire those people, but pay Canadian wages and benefits so that "human rights" gets protected? How many days do you think Walmart can survive by doing that?

 

[Tuscani01]

You guys contradicting yourselves sometimes. You hate Walmart because you don't like its use of cheap labour and say Walmart exploit those poor souls by paying them horrible wages. On the other hand, Walmart offers tens of thousands of jobs to developing countries, including China, pulling tens of thousands out of poverty, not into it. These people may end up picking trash on the street if not for Walmart. So you guys refuse to shop there, are you supporting or depriving of human rights here??

Since 1978, when market-oriented economic reforms began, China has experienced the most rapid and sustained increase in human prosperity in world history. According to the World Bank, more than 600 million people have been lifted out of poverty during this period. The number of Chinese living in poverty has fallen from 65% of the population to around 10%. In both absolute numbers and percentage of population this is unprecedented, and dwarfs the combined effects of all other poverty reduction programs undertaken by anyone, anywhere in the world, over the past 30 years. Yet you guys choose to ignore the fact, and keep the China bashing, just because, I guess, workers are not paid $40,000 a year with 3 weeks of vacation as Canadians are?

Wal-Mart now employs over 80,000 people directly – but this number is inconsequential next to the number of people who work in factories that supply Wal-Mart products. The company has more than 20,000 Chinese suppliers, which employ several million people. Using standard employment and income multipliers, Wal-Mart can be credited with the creation of as many as 10 million Chinese jobs and contributing as much as $15 billion annually to China’s GDP. That’s enough to keep 32 million Chinese above the poverty line.

So on the one hand, you despise Walmart because you think it treats employees unfairly. On the other, you'd rather it bankrupt so that those factories works will have no job and go back to the fields on plant corn for $500 a year?

I am not a fan of Walmart and shopped there for less than 5 times in my life. What bothers me is the logic implied in these irrational statement and action. So you think the right thing to do is for Walmart to hire those people, but pay Canadian wages and benefits so that "human rights" gets protected? How many days do you think Walmart can survive by doing that?

I never said I hate Walmart. I also don't really shop at Walmart.

 

[kkgg7]

I'm not lying to myself because I'm aware that most places are sourcing from China (or wherever), but I make the choices where I can. You'd be surprised what you can source here that is made here and that isn't always the more expensive option...

Case in point: I was at a small independent shop recently looking to buy some baby clothes as a gift when I noticed that all the labels were saying 'Made in China'. When I complained to the store owner she took me throughout the store showing me all of the locally made items available and I ended up buying a lovely receiving blanket made by a lady in Ancaster and some clothes from a small company in in Montreal... and guess what? The prices for the local items were actually on par with the overseas stuff that had just been marked up more! In other words, the store owner likely wanted me to buy the higher margin foreign items but as a consumer I made it quite clear what I wanted.

The more you look the more you can do this with many things you buy!

Fine. I hope you have enough time doing the same for each item your family purchases.

So basically you are advocating not buying foreign products? OK, why not Canada stop trading with other countries, do you think it will be a great thing to happen? If you refuse to buy imported products, I guess foreigners should stop buying Canadian goods as well? How do you keep the jobs?

OR, you will probably say you just don't like buying Chinese goods, or any goods from poor countries where labour is cheap? I can hardly follow your intention here? Do you just hate developing countries, or imported products in general?

 

[gristle]

Fine. I hope you have enough time doing the same for each item your family purchases.

So basically you are advocating not buying foreign products? OK, why not Canada stop trading with other countries, do you think it will be a great thing to happen? If you refuse to buy imported products, I guess foreigners should stop buying Canadian goods as well? How do you keep the jobs?

OR, you will probably say you just don't like buying Chinese goods, or any goods from poor countries where labour is cheap? I can hardly follow your intention here? Do you just hate developing countries, or imported products in general?

Are you then suggesting that he must buy Chinese goods, or does he have a right to choose his purchases on whatever criteria he sees fit? I don't think you are personally owed a rationale for other people's choices. As for employment, I don't see you lamenting the 100,000 textile manufacturing jobs that have been lost in this country over the past decades.

 

[Glen]

You guys contradicting yourselves sometimes. You hate Walmart because you don't like its use of cheap labour and say Walmart exploit those poor souls by paying them horrible wages. On the other hand, Walmart offers tens of thousands of jobs to developing countries, including China, pulling tens of thousands out of poverty, not into it. These people may end up picking trash on the street if not for Walmart. So you guys refuse to shop there, are you supporting or depriving of human rights here??

Since 1978, when market-oriented economic reforms began, China has experienced the most rapid and sustained increase in human prosperity in world history. According to the World Bank, more than 600 million people have been lifted out of poverty during this period. The number of Chinese living in poverty has fallen from 65% of the population to around 10%. In both absolute numbers and percentage of population this is unprecedented, and dwarfs the combined effects of all other poverty reduction programs undertaken by anyone, anywhere in the world, over the past 30 years. Yet you guys choose to ignore the fact, and keep the China bashing, just because, I guess, workers are not paid $40,000 a year with 3 weeks of vacation as Canadians are?

Wal-Mart now employs over 80,000 people directly – but this number is inconsequential next to the number of people who work in factories that supply Wal-Mart products. The company has more than 20,000 Chinese suppliers, which employ several million people. Using standard employment and income multipliers, Wal-Mart can be credited with the creation of as many as 10 million Chinese jobs and contributing as much as $15 billion annually to China’s GDP. That’s enough to keep 32 million Chinese above the poverty line.

So on the one hand, you despise Walmart because you think it treats employees unfairly. On the other, you'd rather it bankrupt so that those factories workers will have no job and go back to the fields to plant corn for $500 a year?

I am not a fan of Walmart and shopped there for less than 5 times in my life. What bothers me is the logic implied in these irrational statement and action. So you think the right thing to do is for Walmart to hire those people, but pay Canadian wages and benefits so that "human rights" gets protected? How many days do you think Walmart can survive by doing that?

I must have missed the memo that it is our duty to ensure China's economic well being. That they should be happy to work for us instead of for themselves.

PS If you are going to copy someone's words at least cite the source.

www.emergingmarketsoutlook.com/?p=1490

 

[Tewder]

Fine. I hope you have enough time doing the same for each item your family purchases.

You're being deliberately obtuse about this. I've already clearly explained that you cannot shop this way for everything, that's it's simply an issue of spending your money 'thoughtfully': you don't always save money by buying 'foreign', and we have to be mindfull of the greater cost to our country (in terms of jobs, economic impact, standard of living) of buying 'foreign' in order to save a few cents per item. I understand that some people cannot always afford this choice, but I also understand that some people are simply ignorant of the greater consequences.

So basically you are advocating not buying foreign products? OK, why not Canada stop trading with other countries, do you think it will be a great thing to happen? If you refuse to buy imported products, I guess foreigners should stop buying Canadian goods as well? How do you keep the jobs?

OR, you will probably say you just don't like buying Chinese goods, or any goods from poor countries where labour is cheap? I can hardly follow your intention here? Do you just hate developing countries, or imported products in general?

My issue is the unlevel playing field. Canadian companies foot the responsibility of labour laws, minimum wage standards, and environmental regulations among other things that companies abroad don't. We also do not have the benefit of economies of scale that is a massive advantage to China and other places. In the absence of tarrifs and other deterrents what is to stop greedy global coroporations from closing up shop in North America and putting our workers out of their jobs? Not much but my objection as a consumer!

... and as for trade what really do we have on offer right now but natural resources which presumably the world will still need?

I also find it funny that you think Walmart will be the saviour of poverty and disadvantage in China! People there need to rise up and claim their basic human rights before any long term and sustainable market can develop. It's basically an issue of short-term (extreme) pain for long term gain. There is no other way.

So on the one hand, you despise Walmart because you think it treats employees unfairly. On the other, you'd rather it bankrupt so that those factories workers will have no job and go back to the fields to plant corn for $500 a year?

It's exploitation no matter how you look at it. Walmart is not employing people in China out of the goodness of its heart, it's doing so because it can get away with things there that we simply wouldn't tolerate here in North America or Europe. Again, be aware of the consequences... not just to lost jobs here but to the long terms effects of development in China. It simply cannot continue to sustain development in this way and at this pace without destroying itself and its people in the long run.

I am not a fan of Walmart and shopped there for less than 5 times in my life. What bothers me is the logic implied in these irrational statement and action. So you think the right thing to do is for Walmart to hire those people, but pay Canadian wages and benefits so that "human rights" gets protected? How many days do you think Walmart can survive by doing that?

Then let Walmart fall by the wayside like so many other companies it has put out of business! Hey, I know, let's have an even playing field here and give a fair chance that responsible and sustainable companies might be able to compete with Walmart and survive!

 

[EMP1729]

We just need to realize this:

 

[Lenser]

Then let Walmart fall by the wayside like so many other companies it has put out of business! Hey, I know, let's have an even playing field here and give a fair chance that responsible and sustainable companies might be able to compete with Walmart and survive!

I'm no fan of Walmart but it's a gross oversimplification to claim that it put other companies out of business - it wouldn't have been able to do so had millions of customers not begun flocking to their stores and buying all manner of goods. It's a normal feedback loop, not some draconian system handed down from above. Walmart would never have had the power to demand lower wholesale prices from their suppliers had they not been successful at drawing customers in the first place.

The only way Walmart could fall by the wayside at this point is if their massive customer base stopped shopping there. I don't see that as being too likely. If for some miraculous reason we stop importing goods made elsewhere then perhaps it could fail that way as well - although I'd expect they'd do their best to simply switch to selling products made in North America, and continue to demand as low a wholesale price as possible from their suppliers.