News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 11K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 43K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 6.7K     0 

How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 223 70.3%
  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 16 5.0%
  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 35 11.0%
  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 25 7.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 18 5.7%

  • Total voters
    317
But imagine a St. Clair line, from Warden station to Kipling station. With rail crossings of the ravines and valleys between Mount Pleasant and Woodbine!

Would be fun to ride, but not easy to build.

Plus, the existing St Clair west section cannot run any faster, because of the built form / amount of traffic lights. Even if some stops are removed, the traffic lights will stay.

As a short, standalone feeder for the two branches of Yonge line, St Clair West streetcar is fine. As a part of crosstown route, I feel it would be impractical.
 
The capacity is more than adequate for many years to come. And tunnelling was necessary if you wanted to build it. With 90-metre long stations the capacity reduction is primarily in the length of the stations than anything else; which is similar to what we see on the Ontario line as well. If it ever gets to needing 4 times the current anticipated ridership, we'll be into another generation of equipment. At that point a vehicle could be selected that can run automatically every 90 seconds between Pearson and Don Valley station, with minor modifications at Leslie, increasing capacity to heavy rail numbers.

There's certainly modern subways with less capacity. The 40-metres stations (perhaps expandable to 50 metres) of the Canada line come to mind! 🤣



Sheppard seems a bit far to me. But there's other alternatives on Lawrence and/or St. Clair - which would be fantastic. But long after most of us are dead, I'd think.

But imagine a St. Clair line, from Warden station to Kipling station. With rail crossings of the ravines and valleys between Mount Pleasant and Woodbine!
We seem to be off-route around here!
 
This in the 2026 Budget documents .. https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2026/bu/bgrd/backgroundfile-261344.pdf

The 2026 Budget does not include a request for funding new initiatives. However, additional resources may be required in 2026 and future years to advance EELRT and WELRT projects to their next design development phases. Any future funding requests will be presented for Council consideration through a staff report anticipated in the first quarter of 2026. (My highlighting.)
 
A lot of UT member will be long gone and will miss the ride when this sucker starts service in 2050. The cost is out of hand considering TTC used to say it cost $50 million per km for a double track ROW. The portal will cost more than the $50 million. It shows how much is been eaten up for the tunnel and loop as well helping a few other TTC projects or other projects.
If TTC cannot do the QQE ROW for $400-$500 million, they need to cease to exist. TTC was short $90 million back in 2014 going to Parliament loop and that well over cost increase in 11 years.

The end of Q1 for a report is when the Executive Committee is to meet again.

Six projects Toronto wants to build — but hasn’t got funding for

6. Waterfront East LRT (priceless)​

Numbers may cease to have meaning when it comes to building new transit lines in Toronto, but the estimated cost for the 3.8-kilometre line is $2.57 billion, with about $150 million spent on planning so far. It would run from Union Station to Villiers Loop in the Portlands, going along Queens Quay and Cherry Street. While it is a priority project for the city, which is heavily investing in developing the eastern waterfront including the new Ookwemin Minising neighbourhood, it is unclear when the project will move forward.
 
Executive Committee is meeting on March 10th with full Council meeting on 25th through 27th. These are the last meetings that will meet the first quarter of 2026 deadline. Does anybody have insight into timelines for the presentations?
 
Executive Committee is meeting on March 10th with full Council meeting on 25th through 27th. These are the last meetings that will meet the first quarter of 2026 deadline. Does anybody have insight into timelines for the presentations?
I recalled QQE will not going to the Executive Committee until April follow by council unless something has change
 
3.8-kilometre line is $2.57 billion
European metro per km costs for a 3.8 km dedicated tram ROW... I know economies of scale come into play, but this is just sad. Smells like crazy high soft costs à la PSE in Montreal:
1772737816908.png
 
European metro per km costs for a 3.8 km dedicated tram ROW... I know economies of scale come into play, but this is just sad. Smells like crazy high soft costs à la PSE in Montreal:

IIRC a lot of the cost is for the underground work under Bay and at Union Station. Not a normal dedicated tram ROW.
 
Local Councillor LRT petition asking for money from Doug and Mark. Link below if interested.

“We need to keep going - by the 2040s, the eastern waterfront will have at least 150,000 more residents and 50,000 more jobs.

Good, reliable transit is at the heart of building truly complete communities where you can create a future. The Waterfront East LRT will unlock our waterfront to make it easier to travel across the city, and achieve our critical housing and climate leadership goals.

To build the Waterfront East LRT, the City needs funding from the provincial and federal governments. Sign the petition to show your support for the Waterfront East LRT!”

Ausma Malik Petition
 
This Report, coming to TEYCC on April 1st has some updates on the work at Small Street


Therefore, Transportation Services is requesting authorization for the following:
• Temporary detour of the Martin Goodman Trail on Parliament Street, between Merchant's Wharf and Lake Shore Boulevard East and;
• Temporary closure of the east side boulevard on Parliament Street between Merchant's Wharf and Lake Shore Boulevard East and the provision of a temporary bi-direction bicycle lane for a period of 9 months between April 22,2026 and December 31, 2026
• Extension of the existing temporary closure of the north sidewalk and a portion of the westbound curb lane on Queens Quay East, between Small Street and Bonnycastle Street from October 4, 2026 to December 31, 2026; and
• Extension of the existing temporary closure of Small Street to all road users, between Lake Shore Boulevard East and Queens Quay East from October 4,2026, to December 31, 2026.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PL1
I think you will find that there will be a lot of resistance for funding a Waterfront LRT by both QP and Torontonians themselves after the fiasco of Finch. People will legitimately ask why spend so much money on something no faster than a bus in a bus lane and have to put up with years of construction.

If Toronto is determined to get a streetcar for the line, there is an alternative.........VLRT, VERY Light rail transit. It's a new system that is being rolled out in Cambridge UK. They are very light trains in small segments but can be joined together to roughly equal the capacity of a current TTC streetcar. Why bother?..........because the UK suffers from the same problem Toronto does, streetcars are now too expensive to implement and justify and seem to take forever to get built.

What are 2 of the biggest expenses and time consuming issues of building new streetcar/LRT routes?.........digging up the roadways and moving existing underground infrastructure and putting up the electrical power supply and VLRT gets rid of those things. The vehicles are very light ans hence do not require any digging because the tracks are built at only 40 centimeters. Due to this they don't require any environmental review no more than repaving a current road does. They are battery powered and hence need no catenary infrastructure just a recharging at terminus stations. They are also bi-directional so they don't need terminus loops and are 100% low-floor.

Now I maybe 5000 km away but I can hear you all screaming "gadgetbahn" from here but these are not. They run on standard LRT/streetcar trackage so they could ply any streetcar route in the city. I know the TTC gauge is unique but I wouldn't think that would be a problem that couldn't easily be solved. Current streetcars wouldn't be able to use the tracks but these new trains could use current ones. This also has the advantage of not needing special maintenance/operational facilities.
 
I think you will find that there will be a lot of resistance for funding a Waterfront LRT by both QP and Torontonians themselves after the fiasco of Finch. People will legitimately ask why spend so much money on something no faster than a bus in a bus lane and have to put up with years of construction.

If Toronto is determined to get a streetcar for the line, there is an alternative.........VLRT, VERY Light rail transit. It's a new system that is being rolled out in Cambridge UK. They are very light trains in small segments but can be joined together to roughly equal the capacity of a current TTC streetcar. Why bother?..........because the UK suffers from the same problem Toronto does, streetcars are now too expensive to implement and justify and seem to take forever to get built.

What are 2 of the biggest expenses and time consuming issues of building new streetcar/LRT routes?.........digging up the roadways and moving existing underground infrastructure and putting up the electrical power supply and VLRT gets rid of those things. The vehicles are very light ans hence do not require any digging because the tracks are built at only 40 centimeters. Due to this they don't require any environmental review no more than repaving a current road does. They are battery powered and hence need no catenary infrastructure just a recharging at terminus stations. They are also bi-directional so they don't need terminus loops and are 100% low-floor.

Now I maybe 5000 km away but I can hear you all screaming "gadgetbahn" from here but these are not. They run on standard LRT/streetcar trackage so they could ply any streetcar route in the city. I know the TTC gauge is unique but I wouldn't think that would be a problem that couldn't easily be solved. Current streetcars wouldn't be able to use the tracks but these new trains could use current ones. This also has the advantage of not needing special maintenance/operational facilities.

I love the creativity here, but as it is, this does not look like it would pass North American crash standards. Standards that are often outdated, and potentially less safe than European standards.
Related, and I could be wrong, but it seems North American low floor trams have the driver cabin / bottom of windshield higher up than European ones. Just compare the Citadis 405 to the Citadis Spirit or Flexity Freedoms. Hopefully this would be an easy fix though.
 
I think you will find that there will be a lot of resistance for funding a Waterfront LRT by both QP and Torontonians themselves after the fiasco of Finch. People will legitimately ask why spend so much money on something no faster than a bus in a bus lane and have to put up with years of construction.

If Toronto is determined to get a streetcar for the line, there is an alternative.........VLRT, VERY Light rail transit. It's a new system that is being rolled out in Cambridge UK. They are very light trains in small segments but can be joined together to roughly equal the capacity of a current TTC streetcar. Why bother?..........because the UK suffers from the same problem Toronto does, streetcars are now too expensive to implement and justify and seem to take forever to get built.

What are 2 of the biggest expenses and time consuming issues of building new streetcar/LRT routes?.........digging up the roadways and moving existing underground infrastructure and putting up the electrical power supply and VLRT gets rid of those things. The vehicles are very light ans hence do not require any digging because the tracks are built at only 40 centimeters. Due to this they don't require any environmental review no more than repaving a current road does. They are battery powered and hence need no catenary infrastructure just a recharging at terminus stations. They are also bi-directional so they don't need terminus loops and are 100% low-floor.

Now I maybe 5000 km away but I can hear you all screaming "gadgetbahn" from here but these are not. They run on standard LRT/streetcar trackage so they could ply any streetcar route in the city. I know the TTC gauge is unique but I wouldn't think that would be a problem that couldn't easily be solved. Current streetcars wouldn't be able to use the tracks but these new trains could use current ones. This also has the advantage of not needing special maintenance/operational facilities.
There's an even easier solution to this problem, that's to stop calling the East Bayfront LRT an LRT because it's literally not; it's just an expansion of the streetcar network. When we constructed the tracks along Sumach for the PanAms nobody batted an eye and it was built without much fuss. If we just called the East Bayfront line a streetcar we wouldn't have to do all of these mental gymnastics, Torontonians know what a streetcar line is so just tell them that. Also introducing yet another bespoke vehicle type that is only used in 1 city on earth, has no guaranteed long term manufacturer support, and will just create new compatibility and maintenance headaches is not a solution. The TTC has been very deliberate in its effort in trying to streamline all aspects of operations by reducing the number of different vehicle types in the network. Toronto is not the place to be experimenting with new gadgethbahn nonsense we need actually real and proven solutions for our transit woes and not making wild gambles on new technologies; let other cities be the guinea pigs for new technologies and we'll examine them ourselves if they prove a viable alternative in the future.
 
There's an even easier solution to this problem, that's to stop calling the East Bayfront LRT an LRT because it's literally not; it's just an expansion of the streetcar network. When we constructed the tracks along Sumach for the PanAms nobody batted an eye and it was built without much fuss. If we just called the East Bayfront line a streetcar we wouldn't have to do all of these mental gymnastics, Torontonians know what a streetcar line is so just tell them that. Also introducing yet another bespoke vehicle type that is only used in 1 city on earth, has no guaranteed long term manufacturer support, and will just create new compatibility and maintenance headaches is not a solution. The TTC has been very deliberate in its effort in trying to streamline all aspects of operations by reducing the number of different vehicle types in the network. Toronto is not the place to be experimenting with new gadgethbahn nonsense we need actually real and proven solutions for our transit woes and not making wild gambles on new technologies; let other cities be the guinea pigs for new technologies and we'll examine them ourselves if they prove a viable alternative in the future.
I have never heard that anyone intends to buy a different type of vehicle for the QQE LRT - in fact when the TTC bought the second tranche of new streetcars a few years ago some were particularly bought for this line. I agree with you that there is some confusion between streetcars and Light Rail here but the proposed QQE line is, as you say, an extension of the current streetcar system, will use the same vehicles as the existing streetcar network and will be linked to the rest of the streetcar network., The new lines 5 and 6 ARE LRT lines and they do not use same vehicles nor do they link to the streetcar network - which is actually a different gauge.
 

Back
Top