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livdb
Guest
That's an interesting observation, I've been to London and would never think to compare the two cities. What exactly was it that made you make that comparison? It certainly isn't our expansive subway system... lol
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- Thread starter MetroMan
- Start date
That's an interesting observation, I've been to London and would never think to compare the two cities. What exactly was it that made you make that comparison? It certainly isn't our expansive subway system... lol
allabootmatt
Senior Member
I have waited 20-30 minutes for subways in Manhattan as early as 11pm, on central lines like the ACE or BDFV. New York's subway frequency sucks. There's no way around that--and it's only getting worse thanks to the MTA's financial troubles.
Edit @livdb: You have to sort of leave the city centres out of the comparison--obviously central London, which is the heart of an ancient imperial capital, has little in common with central Toronto, which is very much a skyscraping North American downtown in all the best ways. But once you leave Zone 1--ie beyond where most tourists go--London and (the old City of) Toronto are astonishingly similar.
Both are dominated by a mix of row houses, detached, and semi-detached, mostly in brick, both tend to be built around very vibrant and multiethnic neighbourhood high streets, and both are interspersed with old industrial areas and big parks. This is particularly true of north London. A neighbourhood like Islington is basically a dead ringer for the Annex; Camden Town away from the market is a lot like Queen West. Other Canadians I know in London find a very similar feel.
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golodhendil
Active Member
Again, I wasn't commenting on the quality of service, merely the fact that there is such service "on paper", barring real life technical problems that occur in every city.
Re: the Britishness of Toronto. I haven't been to lots of places in outer London, but from my experience London is much more comparable to Boston, though the latter is of course smaller and without the imperial grandeur. By that account, one of the most comparable cities to Toronto should be Boston, which is, indeed, what I feel.
Tewder
Senior Member
On an epidsode of '30 Rock' I watched last night Alex Baldwin's character says to Tina Fey's character that she should go move to Toronto, that it is "like NY but without the 'stuff'" It was said in a very mocking way and it underlined for me that the cool diverse image that Toronto tries to project of its unique multicultural cosmopolitanism (sorry 3D) just doesn't register in other cities that are, to one degree or another and no matter how much we may protest, just as multicultural and diverse as we. Not to make too big a point of it, but it's hard to ignore a 'rare' mainstream American cultural reference to Toronto that is clearly mocking in its deliberate ambiguity.
Some people in Toronto may find 'specificity' to be an outdated 'postcard' notion, or non-p.c. or too simplistic, but how is their approach working for us so far? Not so good quite honestly. There is nothing wrong with embracing our history and heritage collectively. In fact, this is a sign of a truly mature and inclusive diversity where all feel a part of the whole. There is also nothing wrong with understanding what makes us unique in our context. We may often be blind to this ourselves for many reasons (antipathy to our British colonial past, a self-consciousness of being seen as 'bland' or too 'white bread' and the blind embracing of multuculturalism, etc), and should listen to others who do have a more objective perspective. Call it trite if you will but most cities we seek to experience have something unique that calls to us, and it is our given preconceived understanding of this that is part of the allure. Toronto ignores this, thinking that being the Epcot Centre of the world was going to be the big draw, but this is in fact the outmoded line of thinking. The world is an Epcot Centre and what people want now is an understanding of what makes one place special or unique over another.
Some people in Toronto may find 'specificity' to be an outdated 'postcard' notion, or non-p.c. or too simplistic, but how is their approach working for us so far? Not so good quite honestly. There is nothing wrong with embracing our history and heritage collectively. In fact, this is a sign of a truly mature and inclusive diversity where all feel a part of the whole. There is also nothing wrong with understanding what makes us unique in our context. We may often be blind to this ourselves for many reasons (antipathy to our British colonial past, a self-consciousness of being seen as 'bland' or too 'white bread' and the blind embracing of multuculturalism, etc), and should listen to others who do have a more objective perspective. Call it trite if you will but most cities we seek to experience have something unique that calls to us, and it is our given preconceived understanding of this that is part of the allure. Toronto ignores this, thinking that being the Epcot Centre of the world was going to be the big draw, but this is in fact the outmoded line of thinking. The world is an Epcot Centre and what people want now is an understanding of what makes one place special or unique over another.
urbanboom
Active Member
Buddy, I really think you over-analyse things. I saw the same joke: it was about how Toronto (or Canada) was similar to New York (or the US) but without all the crazy antics of their show-business lifestyles. The joke had nothing to do with Toronto, it was about the craziness of New York (that show is full of them). After all, how many US viewers would get a Toronto Multiculturalism joke? Btw, it was Steve Martin, not Alec Baldwin in that segment.
ganjavih
Senior Member
There is a remnant of Britishness in Toronto in that it's a fairly orderly, efficient, and civilised city for its size. The culture of complaining is also kind of British.
There are parts of London that resemble Toronto, but I don't think I see that much of a resemblance overall. Maybe a city like Birmingham would be a better comparison. I dunno.
When I visit Toronto now, it feels most like a large American city. Strange, I never had that feeling before.
Tewder
Senior Member
Yes this is the episode with Steve Martin but Baldwin makes the comment to Fey. I disagree with your reading of the joke because the line would have just referenced any other US city such as Chicago. It had to be a place without 'stuff' (meaning an identity) to be funny, imo. It may be over-analysis, i agree, but just for the sake of debate...
Tewder
Senior Member
Urbanboom: my apologies, you're correct that it was Steve Martin who delivers the line.
He is talking to Fey and the whole line is:
"Cheap cholesterol medicine from Canada. A Paris Hilton film released only in Canada. Come with me to Canada… Toronto is just like New York but without all the stuff."
He is talking to Fey and the whole line is:
"Cheap cholesterol medicine from Canada. A Paris Hilton film released only in Canada. Come with me to Canada… Toronto is just like New York but without all the stuff."
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MisterF
Senior Member
Steve Martin made a funny? He hasn't done that in years!
urbanboom
Active Member
i see what you mean, but the reason they choose Toronto was because Steve Martin's character was a convict and had to escape the country, so he went to Toronto, Canada: "A city like New York" (a compliment in my books) but without all this "stuff".
urbanboom
Active Member
Apparently Steve Martin makes a lot of Toronto funnies...
http://torontoist.com/2009/01/steve_martin_meets_the_canadianians.php
Tewder
Senior Member
You're probably right urbanboom but I still sensed a little 'ribbing': the Paris Hilton movie only released in Canada because 'nobody' who is anybody would see it kind of idea.
OttoSchloss
Active Member
You do realize that a lot of these shows have Canadian writers. The jokes probably wouldn't even be dreamed of without them because otherwise Canada is just a non-entity.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
Yeah, without Lorne Michaels even we wouldn't know we existed.
carrefour
New Member
First of all, Torontonians do not hate Toronto. I mean those who live within the 416. They are not chauvinistic about the city because to real Torontonians, nothing else exists outside of Toronto. This feeling gets even stronger when you divide Toronto up into neighbourhoods. I know people who live at Queen and Bathurst that have never been to Yonge and Eglinton, a major intersection, because of the "Why would I? Besides I don't have a passport" attitude.
Torontonians are very self-absorbed. Which is what I like.
The real problem with Toronto is its leaders. Toronto happened by accident. We became powerful because Montreal screwed-up. And although that began 30 years ago, not one level of government has acted upon Toronto's "new-found" status. The federal government still pions for the day that Montreal rise again. The provincial government is too worried about constituents form outside T.O. being angry if in fact anything is done for T.O. And the municipal government is too busy yanking each other's genitals to put a strong plan into action.
This is the problem. So we end up with blah tourism campaigns and leaders trying to find comparisons with NYC. World-class and multicultural backwash. Because they are unimaginative, lack vision, and are only there to suck off the teat that is our tax dollars.
The best thing I could recommend is that the neighbourhood BIAs do themselves. That is, do their own marketing campaigns, their own improvements, sell themselves because Toronto has become a city where the sum of its parts is significantly less that the parts themselves.
Torontonians are very self-absorbed. Which is what I like.
The real problem with Toronto is its leaders. Toronto happened by accident. We became powerful because Montreal screwed-up. And although that began 30 years ago, not one level of government has acted upon Toronto's "new-found" status. The federal government still pions for the day that Montreal rise again. The provincial government is too worried about constituents form outside T.O. being angry if in fact anything is done for T.O. And the municipal government is too busy yanking each other's genitals to put a strong plan into action.
This is the problem. So we end up with blah tourism campaigns and leaders trying to find comparisons with NYC. World-class and multicultural backwash. Because they are unimaginative, lack vision, and are only there to suck off the teat that is our tax dollars.
The best thing I could recommend is that the neighbourhood BIAs do themselves. That is, do their own marketing campaigns, their own improvements, sell themselves because Toronto has become a city where the sum of its parts is significantly less that the parts themselves.