[andrewpmk]

truthfully I dont think 3 bedrooms is needed for a lot of families... Theres no reason why 2 kids cant share a room. Obviously if you have a boy and a girl it might be more of a problem. But housing is just one difficult problem about trying to live downtown as a family. There simply arent as many schools or sports programs for children which is important to many people. Although we live in a paranoid society ppl with houses still have back yards to let their children play. I lived in a condo for numerous years which only had maybe a 15 foot squared patch of grass on the outside of the building. The one child in the entire building use to always build a snowman here. It was kinda cute but also kinda sad. The same boy would study in the food court under the cbc building when he was older. I know other cultures have managed to live in small places and should be applauded. But that is simply not our social reality. It will take many years for food court studying to become an exepted way of growing up.

Not many people can afford to raise kids downtown, apartments are tiny and very costly there, but many people can and increasingly do in the inner suburbs. Notice all the low end condos being built in the 416 suburbs and 905 where you can buy a 2+den for $350,000 or so. Compare this to downtown where this costs $500,000 to millions. This sure beats commuting to god knows where in Durham or whatever which is brutal, houses are just too expensive in Toronto these days. The point of zone fares is not to make commuting prohibitively expensive but to discourage excessively long commutes.

 

[accura407]

This is becoming ridiculous - trying to state that people are advocating kids live on their own close to school. Afterall are kids not suppose to be living close to the schools they attend - you cannot just choose any school that is not in close proximity (district) to the house you live in. And I need to add probably being driven to school instead of walking. Its strange people move to suburbs because they perceive it is safe yet children are driven to school. I know someone who moved to Vaughan, her 2 girls age 13 and 11 walked to school and they were looked down upon and other parents would wonder why they were not driven. I mean really - is it not suppose to be the other way around.

Your not getting the point! If a house of 5 people have 3 people that are close to their current work/school, why should the remaining 2 people be severly punished?

I am not against discussing fare by distance! I am angered by the heavy generalization and magic bullet solutions put forward by you and kkgg7!

Do you think everyone in he suburbs is very well off? No. But living downtown wpuld only make our lives even harder. Unless the future has zero children and just a bunch of swiging singles! You have to think about families.

And the market has CLEARLY spoken on where families wih children would like to live. Once they are in university then sure you could live anywhere. And guess what? Many are infact moving to dense hubs like NYCC to rid of the suburban expense of living.

But as long as kids are involved, suburbs will ALWAYS be number one choice. Does it have to be like the excessive luxury of vaughan? No. I live in a middle class neighourhood composed largely of first generation italians (of which i am not) and it is not the kind of homes you describe.

Lets talk transit and stop trying to overhaul the family lifestyle! Its a losing battle.

 

[11th]

1. Don't be fooled, the is lots of that in the city. Willowdale, North York. North and Central Etobicoke. Scarborough north of Sheppard.

I'd exclude Willowdale from that list. Most of the McMansions there are built on lots once home to pre-war era bungalows. The area's also developed decades before north Scarborough, and north Etobicoke - just look at the street layout, small grids.

 

[Palma]

I am not saying families need to live downtown because for the neighbourhoods of single and semi's that exist south of Eglinton, the houses are expensive. But for families living in the inner suburbs I don't see how fare by distance will be so expensive if traveling downtown since being in the inner suburbam I think people are centrally located whether for going downtown or uptown. I find the people who are complaining are the ones in Vaughan, both against fare by distance and congestion tolls. There should thus be only Go transit to get everyone into Toronto along with its higher cost which people accept yet with subways they won't.

 

[ibhattac]

It might be constructive for some participants in this thread to take a read through of this report compiled for York Region:
http://www.yorku.ca/yisp/publications/documents/Infrastructure_Analysis.pdf

This report forms the foundation of the Human Services Planning/Making Ends Meet initiative underway there. Though, I personally take exception to their decision to deal with creating 'better' jobs as opposed to dealing with housing. But that is politics, I suppose. Regardless, much the same story exists in Peel Region.

And if you haven't read Three Cities by now, shame on you, go read it and come back to these forums:
http://www.urbancentre.utoronto.ca/pdfs/curp/tnrn/Three-Cities-Within-Toronto-2010-Final.pdf

My point is that like many other public goods, perhaps there should be a social re-distributive function/agenda for public transit and not simply a pay your own way/don't bother me approach. The question is whether Toronto taxpayers should shoulder the burden for the region or if it is well past time for a regional funding approach/delivery model for transit.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Thanks for those ibhattac. I agree we obviously need a regional approach and (somewhat understandably) I think TTC (and its users) have been the main obstacle so far. They really seem to outright resent the idea the TTC subway would cross the border to York Region, for example.

I totally disagree with Palma saying, "I find the people who are complaining are the ones in Vaughan, both against fare by distance and congestion tolls."

These are the same people already paying double TTC fares or fare-by-distance on GO or driving on the 407. It's people IN TORONTO who don't want to pay more. The same people who voted for Rob Ford so he could nix the license and land transfer fees. If Metrolinx proposes, in 2013, creating a transit-specific sales tax or some form of tolls it will be Torontonians rallying hardest against it.

As with the TTC's territoriality, I understand it to a point. But, more generally, I'd say those Vaughan residents you falsely criticize have a better sense of what the GTA is like today than downtowners who walk to work and think the world ends at Bloor. It would be nice but it's not reality.

 

[accura407]

Thanks for those ibhattac. I agree we obviously need a regional approach and (somewhat understandably) I think TTC (and its users) have been the main obstacle so far. They really seem to outright resent the idea the TTC subway would cross the border to York Region, for example.

I totally disagree with Palma saying, "I find the people who are complaining are the ones in Vaughan, both against fare by distance and congestion tolls."

These are the same people already paying double TTC fares or fare-by-distance on GO or driving on the 407. It's people IN TORONTO who don't want to pay more. The same people who voted for Rob Ford so he could nix the license and land transfer fees. If Metrolinx proposes, in 2013, creating a transit-specific sales tax or some form of tolls it will be Torontonians rallying hardest against it.

As with the TTC's territoriality, I understand it to a point. But, more generally, I'd say those Vaughan residents you falsely criticize have a better sense of what the GTA is like today than downtowners who walk to work and think the world ends at Bloor. It would be nice but it's not reality.

+ 1

I could not agree more. The 905 has been consistently increasing their transit funding and introducing rapid services like VIVA, ZUM, MiExpress and so on. We already pay tolls unlike the 416 and we pay higher property taxes as well...but i guess most of 905 understands that taxes are needed to live well.

So really the only people whining are the people within Toronto itself. They think that life can go backwards into the 1970s and 1960s when there was only a 416 and the region ended at Steeles and all transit problems can be solved by the TTC

Those days are over. Either work with the surrounding region or slowly crumble...cause either way the 905 will continue to surge forward and Toronto is increasingly being left behind...

 

[kkgg7]

I totally disagree with Palma saying, "I find the people who are complaining are the ones in Vaughan, both against fare by distance and congestion tolls."

These are the same people already paying double TTC fares or fare-by-distance on GO or driving on the 407. It's people IN TORONTO who don't want to pay more.

Can I ask why the 416 guys should want to pay more for the subway to extend to Vaughan? I myself have never been to Vaughan, nor will I ever go. Why should people like me pay for the Vaughan part of the subway? How often do those who live in downtown/midtown ever need to go to Vaughan? I might someday need to go to Vaughan, and when that day comes, I am more than happy to pay for that higher fare. But I absolutely hate the idea of the fare system based on the assumption that everyone who takes the subway needs to go to Vaughan on a daily basis and therefore charging each the same fare.

Those people who pay double fares because they travel more than double the distance as a decision of living in a city other than the one they need to go to everyday. It is very fair for them to pay that much. You travel longer, requiring more services and resources, so you pay more. What's to whine about here?

 

[sixrings]

truthfully It wouldnt bother me if 905ers had to pay double fair. I just think its wrong to ask that of 416ers. It shouldnt matter where you live in toronto the fare should be the same. At least thats my opinion. We should be encouraging transit use after all. What I do have a problem is are busses like the 120 which run all day with sometimes a handful of people. Or the other day I was on chaplain cresent (I believe) and there was not a single person on the bus. I dont think it makes sense to run busses if there is very very small demand. A handful of people does not justify a bus being run when on other routes the bus is so full people cant even get on at certain stops.

 

[LNahid2000]

Today I thought of taking the TTC from Bay/Davenport to Bay/Gerrard because it was raining, but decided not to because I thought that paying $3 was too much to travel less than 2km. If we had a fare by distance model, I'd be more likely to use the TTC.

 

[sixrings]

well i just wish they would up everyones property tax 2000 a year and have a free system. the people who want to drive can have the roads to themselves with Tolls.

 

[Palma]

I think I need to quit this particular forum for awhile. Its making me crazy

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Can I ask why the 416 guys should want to pay more for the subway to extend to Vaughan? I myself have never been to Vaughan, nor will I ever go. Why should people like me pay for the Vaughan part of the subway? How often do those who live in downtown/midtown ever need to go to Vaughan? I might someday need to go to Vaughan, and when that day comes, I am more than happy to pay for that higher fare. But I absolutely hate the idea of the fare system based on the assumption that everyone who takes the subway needs to go to Vaughan on a daily basis and therefore charging each the same fare.

Those people who pay double fares because they travel more than double the distance as a decision of living in a city other than the one they need to go to everyday. It is very fair for them to pay that much. You travel longer, requiring more services and resources, so you pay more. What's to whine about here?

You and sixrings make the same incorrect assumption the problem is you're not recognizing geographical realities. You say "we should be encouraging transit use." Ok. I happen to live about 1.5 km north of Steeles. So, if I want to go downtown I can a) Walk all the way to Steeles b) pay two fares c) drive to Finch Station. I don't mind paying MORE to take two transit systems but I shouldnt be paying double because of 1.5 km; that's the problem. You are discouraging people on that border. I didn't even mention option d) just drive to my destination. I might actually live CLOSER to the subway than someone, for example, who takes the Finch bus from Don Mills across to Finch station but you want to charge me $3+ more.

If you want a system that recognizes the DISTANCE people travel, I agree that people going further should pay more. But you're wrong in assuming that someone travelling 905-416 (or 416-905) is going further than someone travelling within the 416.

As for whether you go to Vaughan, it's irrelevant. I grew up in North York and have never, in 30+ years riding the TTC, taken the Danforth line west of Bathurst or east of Vic Park. Am I here arguing that having a station at High Park is therefore idiotic? I've never ridden the Scarborough RT and don't intend to, but I don't advocate scrapping it or say Scarberians should pay double the normal fare. The system isn't designed for YOU, it's designed for the population of the GTA. And it's not designed for people just to go TO Vaughan; it's a two-way system, last I checked.

There are LOTS of people going TO and FROM Vaughan every day. A lot of those people are now already driving down to Finch or Downsview or Yorkdale and parking their cars; cars that will stay a lot closer to home once the subway comes north.

You're also incorrectly assuming that everyone travels from the furthest point in Vaughan to Union Station. Why should it cost more for someone to go from Hwy 7 to Yorkdale than for someone to go from Scarborough to King Street? What about a York U student who lives north of Hwy 7 who will be able to get on, in Vaughan, and ride 3 stops south to Steeles. They should pay twice??

This is exactly the point I made earlier about people "down south" not understanding how people move by car and transit, to and from work and other places, every day. Try looking at a map without lines and you'll see how it all makes sense. It's a new age, man.

We do, to be clear, need some kind of new fare system and it should reflect distance travelled but a single, arbitrary, outdated line is not the answer.

 

[sixrings]

my preferred system is a free system... Just like public school is seen as a necessity transit should be as well. If you want to send your kids to private school you can, you just have to pay for it. If you want to drive everywhere you can you just need to pay for it.

 

[accura407]

You and sixrings make the same incorrect assumption the problem is you're not recognizing geographical realities. You say "we should be encouraging transit use." Ok. I happen to live about 1.5 km north of Steeles. So, if I want to go downtown I can a) Walk all the way to Steeles b) pay two fares c) drive to Finch Station. I don't mind paying MORE to take two transit systems but I shouldnt be paying double because of 1.5 km; that's the problem. You are discouraging people on that border. I didn't even mention option d) just drive to my destination. I might actually live CLOSER to the subway than someone, for example, who takes the Finch bus from Don Mills across to Finch station but you want to charge me $3+ more.

Since people "down south" seem to be stupid to the rest of the city, let's use an example that they can maybe relate to.

Imagine Eglinton Ave was the border of Toronto (As has often advoated btw) and you live just north of Lawrence Ave. You need to travel down to Union but you first take one transit system, pay the ticketed price of $2.60 then reach Eglinton station. There you pay another $2.50 to continue your trip in TTC territory.

Now in the same scenerio, your friend lives all the way down at Victoria Park (much farther away from the downtown core then you are) yet because Victoria Park is within the TTC boundaries he is only paying a single $2.50 to travel to downtown!

Now you ask yourself? Why am I paying MORE to travel to the same destination as someone else just because of a fare boundary? Maybe I should just get a ride down to Eglinton (a phenmenon myself and many many others face in York Region btw) or better yet why not just drive it all the way to downtown. Might as well...

Is it fare that a person from Lawrence & Yonge pays $5.10 while the person from Victoria Park & Bloor pays $2.50?

I don't know how much more simplified you need to make it to understand this but If this doesn't, nothing does.