[pman]

Yes, much better to judge Black’s words on the basis of his criminal past than on the basis of his actual...words. Can this site ever get beyond mindless ad hominem attacks?

While I take Black’s point, it’s not the whole story. English Canada seems unique, in that its elites mostly assert it should lack any common, unifying, national culture and identity. Most countries encourage a sense of shared identity, interest and belonging, so that Bernier’s tweet would be unobjectionable in the rest of the world. But in English Canada (not Quebec), to say that we are a nation and a people sharing a unique collective identity is to commit thoughtcrime. I believe English Canada is the world’s only - what, exactly, place seems sufficiently anodyne - place, then, dedicated to the proposition of its non-existence. Bernier seems under the delusion that our fundamentally fractured and fragmented confederation could ever be anything more than a collection of unique, isolated and contending groups, many vying to outdo each other in their assertion of grievance and demands for restitution. You want to live in a real country? Move to Australia.

 

[Northern Light]

Ok, I'm with @MTown on this one.

Can we walk back the over-use of the word racism.

You may well find something controversial in Bernier's remarks; further, in English, at first blush, I can see a provocative element in the manner of his turn-of-phrase.

But that is not the same as racism.

Based on Bernier's long track record of remarks, I haven't seen evidence that skin-colour is a concern of his.

I think he does have concerns with both cultural heterogeneity taken to extremes, as many people do; and does have concerns over whether certain specific cultural values of some populations (for arguement's sake, misogyny) need not be protected or celebrated.

Might the fear that that is happening, or might happen be misplaced or exaggerated? Perhaps.

But its a far cry from racism, and misuses the term grossly.

I am not Bernier's defender or fan-boy, let's just keep the critiques on point.

***

I'll package this thought too.......... I more often am found agreeing with @AlvinofDiaspar in this forum than I am @pman but here the roles are reversed.

I'm not a particular fan of Conrad Black's. He has a phenomenal vocabulary (not too many people can add to my lexicon in English, he does), and is also an accomplished historian, but I find he often draws conclusions I disagree with, and I find his logic suspect as often as not.

But I think he, as anyone else, should have their remarks judged on the merits.

They are neither more or less accurate or wise because he spent some time in jail.

Lets make an effort to discuss ideas, thoughtfully, in context; without letting our opinions of the proponents thereof; get in the way of the debate.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes, much better to judge Black’s words on the basis of his criminal past than on the basis of his actual...words. Can this site ever get beyond mindless ad hominem attacks?

Would we have entertained the words of any other convicted criminal - or on that matter, awarded them as a serious, self-appointed guardian of Canadian norms after trying to jump ship and have to petition for their citizenship back.

If one doesn't want to be judged by their actions - don't commit them.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Would we have entertained the words of any other convicted criminal - or on that matter, awarded them as a serious, self-appointed guardian of Canadian norms after trying to jump ship and have to petition for their citizenship back.

If one doesn't want to be judged by their actions - don't commit them.

AoD

To be fair.

Elizabeth May; leader of the Federal Green Party has pled guilty to criminal contempt.
Nelson Mandela was convicted of several offenses including sabotage (which he admitted to)

No, I wouldn't put Conrad in that company.

But the point is that a criminal conviction alone is not a reason to discount someone's opinion.

There are plenty of good reasons to dismiss what Conrad Black has to say...........that isn't one of them.

 

[Videodrome]

https://twitter.com/althiaraj/status/1029865651995848710

So basically, Maxime Bernier is an independent who hasn't formally been kicked out of caucus yet. Anything he does is on his own and doesn't speak for the party.

 

[Avenue]

Can we walk back the over-use of the word racism.

You may well find something controversial in Bernier's remarks; further, in English, at first blush, I can see a provocative element in the manner of his turn-of-phrase.

But that is not the same as racism.

Based on Bernier's long track record of remarks, I haven't seen evidence that skin-colour is a concern of his.

I think he does have concerns with both cultural heterogeneity taken to extremes, as many people do; and does have concerns over whether certain specific cultural values of some populations (for arguement's sake, misogyny) need not be protected or celebrated.

Might the fear that that is happening, or might happen be misplaced or exaggerated? Perhaps.

But its a far cry from racism, and misuses the term grossly.

I am not Bernier's defender or fan-boy, let's just keep the critiques on point.

Replace Bernier with Trump above and your text reads as making excuses for him. Exact same thing.

"It's not racism because I haven't seen the evidence" - Well, of course you haven't.

 

[Northern Light]

Replace Bernier with Trump above and your text reads as making excuses for him. Exact same thing.

"It's not racism because I haven't seen the evidence" - Well, of course you haven't.

Excuse me? What kind of pompous @#$#@#$ are you?

How dare you put words in my mouth or ascribe completely BS meanings to my words.

It is not the same thing at all, in any way, shape or form.

You don't get to invent truths that are not supported by facts.

I don't even like Bernier and I have no time for racists.

I also have no time for lynch mobs and people who put words in the mouths of others that were never spoken, intents that were not thought or felt and stating 'facts' for which there is, at best, inadequate evidence, if any at all.

You are incredibly rude, and clearly not very thoughtful. Shame!

 

[SunriseChampion]

Replace Bernier with Trump above and your text reads as making excuses for him. Exact same thing.

"It's not racism because I haven't seen the evidence" - Well, of course you haven't.

Well, this was a stupid comment.

Can you guys let me know when this bullshit obsession with self-righteous lynch mobs living off sterile orthodox thinking dies? K, thx.

In the meantime, I'm going to go pretend I live in a world where people are still able to think and not just resort to tired assumptions and stereotypes based in wilful misinterpretation of clear language.


If anyone thinks that what Bernier said was racist then they need to get some rest, look into what that term means, and try again.

Unreal.

The self-righteous indignation is so frigging stale.

 

[SunriseChampion]

In fact, Bernier needs to leave the party of his own accord. Along with Michael Chong, he's too good for that band of chumps.

 

[SunriseChampion]

.....and another thing:

Accusing people of moral crimes without evidence is itself a moral crime and a sign of authoritarian tendencies.

A racist and one who accuses others of moral crimes without evidence are the same dirt I tread on.

 

[WislaHD]

Well, this was a stupid comment.

Can you guys let me know when this bullshit obsession with self-righteous lynch mobs living off sterile orthodox thinking dies? K, thx.

In the meantime, I'm going to go pretend I live in a world where people are still able to think and not just resort to tired assumptions and stereotypes.


If anyone thinks that what Bernier said was racist then they need to get some rest, look into what that term means, and try again.

Unreal.

The term has been redefined to suit the needs of "progressivism". People coming from this point-of-view would consider Bernier's comments to be racist.

Eventually, one would hope, society will grow tired of this secular puritanism and call out the emperor (so to speak) for not wearing any clothes. I just worry that we will have to suffer through an authoritarian streak (from either or both sides) before we do. History sure loves to repeat itself.

As a (lower case) liberal, I just have no idea how to play this thing out. Maybe hibernate and wake up in a few years.

 

[SunriseChampion]

If these Bernier comments are so inoffensive, why are there comments from Conservatives like this?

Conservative Ontario Sen. Salma Ataullahjan, who is Pakistani-Canadian, said Bernier's recent tweet singling out the Pakistani community was offensive and an attempt to pit Canadians against each other.

"I have a lot of respect for Maxime but it's divisive politics and I don't like that ... maybe he could say something else instead of picking on loyal Canadians and a community that's just trying to mind its own business," she said.

"A lot of [Pakistani-Canadians] supported his leadership bid and instead of wishing them well on Pakistan Independence Day he tweets this out ... He's just poking us in the eye for no reason."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-maxime-bernier-politics-division-1.4787529

What, you mean for pointing out the absurdity of tearing down statues of one of our "founding fathers" yet honouring foreign ones who presided over a war that killed countless people all in the name of foolish tribalism?

And what exactly is wrong with pointing out the hypocrisy and absurdity in that?

I read that this morning and almost (sorry) choked on me oatmeal and tea.
What a joke.

This is getting ridiculous.

I'm afraid @WislaHD is correct: people in general are fool enough and self-hating enough to be drawn in by the siren call of authoritarianism in all its evil glory.


Also, you may have noticed that I said Berner and Chong were too good for that party anyway so various Conservatives can say what they like. They're no better than those here who cry 'racist'!

 

[SunriseChampion]

The term has been redefined to suit the needs of "progressivism". People coming from this point-of-view would consider Bernier's comments to be racist.

Eventually, one would hope, society will grow tired of this secular puritanism and call out the emperor (so to speak) for not wearing any clothes. I just worry that we will have to suffer through an authoritarian streak (from either or both sides) before we do. History sure loves to repeat itself.

As a (lower case) liberal, I just have no idea how to play this thing out. Maybe hibernate and wake up in a few years.

You and me both. I mean, I could go hide out in the bush somewhere but I'm afraid I'd never be able to come out again.

Well said, though.

Us actual liberals might be a dying breed.

 

[Northern Light]

If these Bernier comments are so inoffensive, why are there comments from Conservatives like this?

Conservative Ontario Sen. Salma Ataullahjan, who is Pakistani-Canadian, said Bernier's recent tweet singling out the Pakistani community was offensive and an attempt to pit Canadians against each other.

"I have a lot of respect for Maxime but it's divisive politics and I don't like that ... maybe he could say something else instead of picking on loyal Canadians and a community that's just trying to mind its own business," she said.

"A lot of [Pakistani-Canadians] supported his leadership bid and instead of wishing them well on Pakistan Independence Day he tweets this out ... He's just poking us in the eye for no reason."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-maxime-bernier-politics-division-1.4787529

I never said his comments were inoffensive.

I said they didn't show an indication of racism.

Words matter.

He could be rude/provocative, I might accept an argument for ethnocentrist as well.

Racist is a reference to skin colour. Putting aside that that is an artificial construct........

Race isn't ethnicity. Race isn't culture. Race isn't citizenship.

Call the man on what he said, if you think he spoke poorly. Call him on his motivation if you question it, but support that with facts.

Don't call one thing, another thing

Its intellectual laziness, and its nasty, name-calling.

As to the Tweet itself. I don't see any positive value in him having said it; but I also don't see anything racist in it, nor infactual.

Its worth noting perhaps, that in a year in which our relations with the Indian government were called into question, that Jinnah is not well liked in India.

Per Wikipedia:

According to historian Ayesha Jalal, while there is a tendency towards hagiography in the Pakistani view of Jinnah, in India he is viewed negatively.[225] Ahmed deems Jinnah "the most maligned person in recent Indian history ... In India, many see him as the demon who divided the land."[226] Even many Indian Muslims see Jinnah negatively, blaming him for their woes as a minority in that state.[227]

I have no vested stake one way or the other.

But it is not a choice w/o controversy.

 

[WislaHD]

Us actual liberals might be a dying breed.

We might be going the way of the Red Tory. For years I pitied them for not having a party they could align with. Never did I think we would face the same predicament in a few short years.

Oh well, I am young at least. I can afford to be politically apathetic (hah, and to think I am a poli-sci grad...) for a decade and focus on personal life-goals until this all blows over. All I can really afford to care about is that somehow the Relief Line gets shovels in the grounds at some point.