[unimaginative2]

Haha...for what I just wrote? Would you like to make one?

 

[EnviroTO]

Sounds like a good plan, though I have a couple of nitpicks. I don't think swinging up to Peterborough would work. You'd be adding a huge distance and cost to serve a relatively small destination. Remember the effect that it would have on the key Toronto-Montreal travel time. Serving Peterborough would only be feasible if you abandoned all of the lakefront cities, including Kingston, and I don't think that's a worthwhile tradeoff. Peterborough could be served by a branch along the 35/115 corridor.

Once the high-speed rail exits the urban area near Box Grove it will need to stay north of the developed area in order to avoid noise complaints and maintain straight alignments. Once you create a route that stays north of Brooklin and the northern reaches of Belleville you really aren't adding that much distance. It is a route that at maximum would be 20 km north of where it would have been. If a route is 120km long and deviates 20km north near the middle you only add about 7km total. Seems worth it considering Peterborough is a university town, is larger than Belleville, keeps the route away from urban areas, and and provides through service to a new location with the lakeshore communities continuing to get VIA service.

I would serve Dorval over Mirabel. For one thing, it avoids putting both the Montreal-Québec and Ottawa-Montreal routes (along with the Deux-Montagnes commuter line) through the Mount Royal choke point and avoids a reverse move for continuing trains at Montreal. It also serves Dorval which, for better or worse, will be Montreal's airport in the future.

If the land at Mirabel is gone then that is true although the reverse move is eliminated via Mount Royal as the route was going to avoid travelling through much of the urban area by crossing the river and taking a route 30 path to a tunnel crossing at Sorel-Tracy.

 

[Dan416]

Haha...for what I just wrote? Would you like to make one?

LOL no I was asking if you had made one, you could post it. Just think a map is more suited to describing a route than a description. ^_^

 

[EnviroTO]

In keeping with what others have done, I'll post my own ideas. I've thought about this a lot, but I still don't quite have it all decided definitely in my mind.

...

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Pretty much the same routing I would have (which would be more evident if my map attachment wasn't shrunk on upload). I dove south under Guelph after exiting Breslau passing just north of the Maltby / Gordon Rd intersection, crossing Regional Road 25 at 10 Side Rd (apologies to Glen Cairn golfers), crossing Steeles at Winston Churchill, running on the south side of the 407 to Tomken and diving underground at Tomken, under the Dixie / Derry intersection, and underground to the T1 station. It would get back to the rail corridor roughly under 409, Disco Road Transfer Station, and the property on the south side of Atwell Drive. The same tunnel would handle commuter traffic once electrification occurs but would exit the corridor by expropriating a few properties at Kimbel and Drew.

Exiting the city I would use the Don Valley spur to Leaside and follow the CPR tracks out to Box Grove. The trains would have to run slow through the curve at West Don Lands, the corridor would be triple tracked to where it breaks off from the Bala sub, and double tracked to Leaside. Past Leaside it could run at a fairly quick pace on the two new tracks in the south side of the CP corridor (with CP tracks shifted north and separated by crash barrier) and the new tracks would go underground after passing over Ellesmere to get to a depth where it can pass under Kennedy where it passes under the rail corridor and staying in a tunnel until east of Tapscott following the corridor to Brock Rd before making a straight line to Peterborough.

Between Ottawa and Montreal the route would go to Bourget and if going to Mirabel would make a straight line to a point just south of Autoroute 50 near Lachute, or of going to Dorval a straight line to a point on the CP tracks east of Saint-Clet. From Mirabel the route would travel south to join the Deux-Montagnes line, but if from Dorval would run north under Autoroute 540 to join the rail corridor and expropriate a few properties on Rue Stinson to curve into the Mont-Royal corridor.

The route would exit Montreal south of Saint-Hubert Airport and curve north to follow Autoroute 30 (not too closely to be able to make a straighter route but staying within 4km of it) and go into a tunnel at Tracy and then make its own path on the north shore joining with the existing rail corridor to enter Trois-Rivieres and Quebec city just south of the airport.

 

[dunkalunk]

Just a few. I still disagree with a through station at Pearson, but I've already discussed that ad-nauseum. Anything not mentioned below, I have no concerns with.

The line would continue east along the Guelph Sub before swinging north to bypass Guelph. Trains serving Guelph would divert to the existing, upgraded route. The high-speed line would then roughly follow the existing rail corridor east to Brampton, with a bypass of Georgetown. CN's main freight line would be shifted into the 407 corridor. A station in Brampton is optional, since the Pearson station would serve as a hub for that part of the GTA.

Just remember that this is escarpment country, and that deviating from the existing corridor may cost a lot more than you think when the existing corridor is already very straight. I honestly wish i had more detailed topographic data for this route so I could make sure the one I have is feasible, but anything is possible.
In my map (click for detail), I've included a bypass of both Acton and Rockwood because it would be impossible to straighten these curves effectively and not destroy the towns in the process. However, the route through Georgetown is pretty much dead straight, so I don't see why 3 or 4 rail overpasses can't be built through the town.

If we are looking at ultimate speeds of 300km/h+, then my ultimate solution would look like this. It would basically necessitate the construction of a tunnel between the Junction and College Ave underneath the Grand River, the Golf Club and a bunch of century homes. I'm not sure this kind of tunnel would be feasible in the sandy soil that the Grand River Valley has, but it it is, it would be awesome, as it is also the most direct usable corridor between Pearson and Kitchener.

But in the meantime, I see no issues with electrifying and adding passing track for the existing rail corridor and to run the occasional express train to build up demand for a high speed line, and for future local service.

At Cobourg, the line would shift to an alignment around 10km north of the 401. That does cause some issues at Kingston, where the station would be a bit distant from the city. Then again, the current station is hardly right downtown. Express buses should cover the distance quite quickly.

While it would be almost impossible to get a station into downtown Kingston, I see few real problems with the location of the existing station if the track were realigned to follow to 401 as soon as it left Kingston.

East of Kingston, the line would follow a roughly straight line north-east to Smith's Falls. From there, it would follow the existing VIA-owned corridor to Ottawa. The Ottawa station is a tough one. I'd love nothing more than to revive the wonderful old station that's now the Government Convention Centre. It would be quite an ambitious project, though, and would have to be done almost entirely with a tunnelled loop. The existing VIA station is also a beautiful building and it will be connected to downtown by the new rapid transit line. That's probably a reasonable compromise.

I actually see a different scenario here in which the high speed track is split. The Northern track would follow the existing train route to Ottawa's Via Station as it exists with a few track upgrades. The southern line could be constructed through the airport to 300km/h standards, serving the Ottawa Airport directly by skirting along the north edge of Barrhaven, and the south edge of Davidson Road to reconnect to the Alexandria Subdivison. I would also love to see the downtown Ottawa station be re-utilized, but it is a project of the National Capital Commission to reconnect it.

East of Ottawa, it would follow the old M&O line that's now owned by VIA. A by-pass of Hudson would apparently be needed and I'd want to try to build a dedicated high-speed corridor as far into Montreal as possible. Trains stopping at Trudeau airport would divert into the existing station cavern at the terminal building. The Montreal terminal would be Central Station. Its approach tracks would have to be rebuilt a bit to get speeds up. VIA trains really crawl through Griffintown.

I'm not as familiar with this part of the country, so if a more direct route is feasible, then by all means it should be built, but if not, a rail connection between the CN Alexandria Sub and the CP Dorion Sub as illlustrated in the VIAfast proposal and here would be doable.

I pretty much agree with the entirety of the Quebec Route, but am not sure how a Trois-Rivieres bypass could be built.

The line would be built to 300+ km/h standards and would aim to replace air services as much as possible in the corridor. Air Canada and other airlines would be asked to participate and code-share on routes within the corridor. That's why the good and direct connections at Trudeau and Pearson are very important.

Also add Ottawa MacDonald-Cartier Airport to that codesharing list.

I just though of a couple ideas of how to make the people mover extension/replacement more convenient for airport customers. First, people who have codeshared flights would wait in a dedicated queue for trains from general foot traffic and would receive priority boarding to the airport transit system and codeshared trains. Second, an independent ticket agent can be placed at each of these terminals in addition to baggage handlers to further increase the customer service experience.

 

[dunkalunk]

Haha...for what I just wrote? Would you like to make one?

Yes please.

 

[CanadianNational]

I think the idea of a Pearson stop as the main - or only - Toronto stop is a good one.
It's so built up around the airport now, though, I don't think the line could just go 'straight across' (east to west) through that part of the city. It would have to be slightly further north.
The line could turn south just above Peason, though, and come into the TGV station, loop around, and go back north, then continue on it's way.

If the second half of the terminal is ever completed as planned, I picture the TGV station could be connected to it...something in this fashion.

 

[CapitalSeven]

I think the idea of a Pearson stop as the main - or only - Toronto stop is a good one.

With respect, I think it's a terrible idea. Many of the people on a train to Toronto are visitors from elsewhere. They don't want to go to the airport. If they did they might well have taken a plane, particularly if they are on a high-speed train. One of the chief joys of taking an intercity train is that you end up downtown, not on the edge of town. Certainly shoulder stations like Guildwood or a station at/near Pearson are a terrific idea. But most people don't and won't use them because they are headed for the centre.

 

[dunkalunk]

I'm suprised it hasn't come up yet, and I don't mean to fearmonger, but I see one major concern with routing the majority of trains into Pearson with a station at terminal 1. Want to cripple an entire city? Hop on a GO train to the airport with 20 pounds of explosives in your backpack and detonate it right as you pull into the station. You take out a high speed rail line and major international airport in one fell-swoop.

Granted, occurances such as this are incredibly rare, but you have seen the effect that this type of fearmongering has had on the airline industry. One of the things that will need to be answered if HSR ever goes ahead, is how will the system deal with threats of this nature? Personally, I'd rather not see boarding trains become as much of a procedure as boarding a plane. If this does come to pass, then what are the benefits to taking the train in the first place if you need to go through a 1.5 hour boarding procedure?

 

[andrewpmk]

Lots of other airports have major railway stations under them. For example, Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam, Netherlands has a large railway station with trains serving the entire country and beyond. Many high speed trains stop both there and in downtown Amsterdam.

Not serving Union Station is a terrible idea though. The only place I think of where high speed trains serve a station at the airport but not downtown is Shanghai Hongqiao Airport, but it is connected with downtown by subway and there are older stations closer to downtown Shanghai which mostly serve non high speed trains.

 

[Dan416]

Agreed. It would frankly be stupid to skip either Pearson or Union.

 

[EnviroTO]

One of the biggest advantages of rail travel is that it is city centre to city centre rather than taxi + suburban airport + security + suburban airport + taxi. Serving Pearson makes sense because rail travel doesn't reach all the places people are travelling to and serving the airport means making rail travel viable for part of their trip. By far the most common place for people to be travelling to is the city centre so not going there is a disservice.

 

[dunkalunk]

Agreed. It would frankly be stupid to skip either Pearson or Union.

Agreed. I am slowly being swayed to the idea of a high speed rail station at Terminal 1, although I have trouble visualizing how anything more than a spur could be built off the Georgetown Line effectively. Could anyone else quickly mock up what this sort of thing would look like?

Here's an idea I got from the Schiphol Airport. What's stopping us from routing a High Speed Rail line down the middle of the 427/QEW to the current Lakeshore Line? (The MTO Probaby)

 

[EnviroTO]

Agreed. I am slowly being swayed to the idea of a high speed rail station at Terminal 1, although I have trouble visualizing how anything more than a spur could be built off the Georgetown Line effectively. Could anyone else quickly mock up what this sort of thing would look like?

Section 6 of this document discusses the high-speed rail option: http://www.gotransit.com/gts/en/res...k_IBI_Report_to Transport Canada May_1999.pdf

 

[unimaginative2]

Just remember that this is escarpment country, and that deviating from the existing corridor may cost a lot more than you think when the existing corridor is already very straight. I honestly wish i had more detailed topographic data for this route so I could make sure the one I have is feasible, but anything is possible.
In my map (click for detail), I've included a bypass of both Acton and Rockwood because it would be impossible to straighten these curves effectively and not destroy the towns in the process. However, the route through Georgetown is pretty much dead straight, so I don't see why 3 or 4 rail overpasses can't be built through the town.

If we are looking at ultimate speeds of 300km/h+, then my ultimate solution would look like this. It would basically necessitate the construction of a tunnel between the Junction and College Ave underneath the Grand River, the Golf Club and a bunch of century homes. I'm not sure this kind of tunnel would be feasible in the sandy soil that the Grand River Valley has, but it it is, it would be awesome, as it is also the most direct usable corridor between Pearson and Kitchener.

Your plan is definitely a good one. Mine is pretty much the same, though I'd build a bypass around the north side (or I suppose potentially the south side) of Guelph while serving the city with a spur line. The corridor through Guelph is very constricted and you'd pretty much have to do mass demolition or extensive tunnelling to get through it. It might not be worth the cost, but that's a judgement call and would require a lot more study. Your route by the U of G is a very interesting one! I like how it would be closer to that major trip generator and how there's a relatively small urban area it would have to cross. The issues would surround the Speed River crossing and the golf course, all of which are pretty picturesque areas. I don't think you'd be able to get away with anything other than tunnelling, and that would also require a pricey underground station. Again, a judgement call, but the vast majority of Guelph trips (i.e. to points east) could be served just as well by some dedicated trains that spurred off the HSL just east of the city. People travelling west could just ride to Kitchener and transfer there.

For Georgetown and other cities, generally when you look at other high speed lines--there's a lot of detail available on the California HSR website--they tend to bypass smaller cities. It just seems like it's both cheaper and less disruptive than running right through them, even if it makes the route very slightly longer.

But in the meantime, I see no issues with electrifying and adding passing track for the existing rail corridor and to run the occasional express train to build up demand for a high speed line, and for future local service.

For sure. That should be done regardless of a high-speed rail project, and it could still be used by HSR for things like the Guelph spur service if you go that route.

While it would be almost impossible to get a station into downtown Kingston, I see few real problems with the location of the existing station if the track were realigned to follow to 401 as soon as it left Kingston.

You know, you're probably right. The 1994 study proposed a station along the corridor way north of the 401. I always just accepted that, but I suppose it is a fairly large inconvenience for a very major destination. It's just that the existing station isn't that well-located either, so what's an extra ten minute drive, I figured.

I'm not as familiar with this part of the country, so if a more direct route is feasible, then by all means it should be built, but if not, a rail connection between the CN Alexandria Sub and the CP Dorion Sub as illlustrated in the VIAfast proposal and here would be doable.

The M&O sub is a line that was bought by VIA years ago for high speed rail. I think its main advantage is that it's relatively straight, it's currently unused (unlike the Alexandria Sub, which is also owned by VIA), and it's slightly more direct.

I pretty much agree with the entirety of the Quebec Route, but am not sure how a Trois-Rivieres bypass could be built.

Follow the ex-CP rail corridor through the area. It sort of makes a 'U' shape to serve TR. Connect the two tops of the U.

Also add Ottawa MacDonald-Cartier Airport to that codesharing list.

I definitely agree that a bypass to the south of Ottawa could be desirable, depending on how many trains are not stopping and how much time is added by passing through the Ottawa station. I'm not convinced that an Ottawa Airport station is that useful. In Europe, they've generally found that stations at secondary airports are kind of moot. Cologne and Lyon airport stations, despite the latter's architectural achievements, are quite lightly used. If somebody's going to take the train to the plane, they'll just go to Roissy airport where there's far more choice and generally lower prices. Many of the flights at Ottawa airport are to Toronto and Montreal anyway. Then again, you might be right. It's certainly a subject for further study.

Canadian National, I wish I had your rendering talent! It would make it a lot easier to explain what I'm trying to suggest!