[prosperegal]

Not directly related to ethno-cultural "segregation" per se, but this article seems to be arguing that ethnic malls geared towards the population of "ethnoburbs" have already been saturated and many, including younger generations often shop at more mainstream shopping centres.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...l-of-the-ethnic-mall/article4277988/?page=all

Could this be a sign that we'd expect to see some de-segregation of some ethnic enclaves as their Canadian-born generations grow up (perhaps 20-30 years) and feel that they no longer have to live near those who are "like them" based on roots alone? Or we would still continue to see fresher "new" ethnic enclaves continue as long as the GTA attracts newer immigrants at a steady pace -- time will tell.

It's both a "cultural" and language thing (speaking from experience). The Canadian born/raised generation (I'm including those who came as teens) all attended school here, and thus, speak English and are fully integrated into so-called "mainstream" Canadian culture - even if they preferred pop music (to varying degrees) from their ancestral homeland as teens. Therefore, they're more likely to use services not directly targeting their ethnicity. Their parents, on the other hand, were adults, and probably set in their ways to varying degrees. Many, even if white collar professionals, worked within their community (those in the medical and real estate fields, especially). Therefore, they're not as exposed, and thus, not as comfortable with the mainstream (though I DO see a lot of Chinese baby boomers at very high end shopping districts!). I think I was lucky growing up - my neighbourhoods weren't so Chinese-concentrated and my parents worked outside of the ethnic community. While there was a bit of My Big Fat Greek Wedding/Gilmore Girls (think Lane and Mrs. Kim) conflict like any other immigrant/first gen family, I think there was more understanding than many of my friends' experiences. I DO think that Toronto's white collar/solidly middle class neighbourhoods were MORE segregated than working class back in the 80s and 90s...and probably into the early 2000s.

 

[Johnny Au]

Pacific Mall, Market Village, and Splendid China Tower have many non-East-Asian customers as well, despite those three malls being ethnic malls.

 

[prosperegal]

Pacific Mall, Market Village, and Splendid China Tower have many non-East-Asian customers as well, despite those three malls being ethnic malls.

Do you think East Asian malls tend to get MORE non-East Asians than other "ethnic" shopping districts get clients who are NOT of the background? Restaurants don't count, of course. I can't say I have ever shopped at predominantly Caribbean shopping districts, for example.

 

[Johnny Au]

Pacific Mall is designated a "tourist attraction" and thus opens on statutory holidays, unlike most other malls, ethnic or non-ethnic (Eaton Centre is the only other shopping mall open during statutory holidays). That alone attracts many non-East-Asians, along with some shady stuff sold there.

 

[wild goose chase]

Pacific Mall is designated a "tourist attraction" and thus opens on statutory holidays, unlike most other malls, ethnic or non-ethnic (Eaton Centre is the only other shopping mall open during statutory holidays). That alone attracts many non-East-Asians, along with some shady stuff sold there.

Really? I didn't know that. I wouldn't have thought that most cities would have designated their malls as tourist attractions, unless they were very notable on the world stage like say the West Edmonton Mall (which I suppose isn't the largest mall in the world anymore though).

I wonder where the tourists are coming from to see Pacific Mall or what's the typical target demographic who views it as an "attraction" -- is it people from nearby in Ontario, other Canadians visiting Toronto or international visitors? It still gives me somewhat of a funny image to visualize a French or Japanese tourist walking around the mall with a camera or something though, but I suppose if it adds to our city's (or the GTA's) appeal then that's great.

 

[prosperegal]

Pacific Mall is designated a "tourist attraction" and thus opens on statutory holidays, unlike most other malls, ethnic or non-ethnic (Eaton Centre is the only other shopping mall open during statutory holidays). That alone attracts many non-East-Asians, along with some shady stuff sold there.

I actually NEVER go there. Parking is an absolute NIGHTMARE! I guess I need to hand back my Chinese card - LOL. I'm able to get my fix of East Asian groceries in mainstream and non-ghetto Chinese/East Asian places downtown anyway. No need to go up there unless I have to.

ETA: I'm sometimes nervous at predominantly Chinese places. While my spoken Cantonese is good, there's always a certain (disapproving) look I think I get from management - that I'm just another "dumb Jook Sing" (CBC/Canadian Born Chinese/westernized Chinese). I know I'm not the only one.

 

[Skeezix]

Pacific Mall is designated a "tourist attraction" and thus opens on statutory holidays, unlike most other malls, ethnic or non-ethnic (Eaton Centre is the only other shopping mall open during statutory holidays). That alone attracts many non-East-Asians, along with some shady stuff sold there.

Yes and no. Pacific Mall/Market Village does have a tourist exemption under the Retail Business Holidays Act. However, York Region has given the same designation to a number of malls (namely Vaughan Mills, Promenade, Upper Canada Mall, Hillcrest, Markville) - I have no idea whether all these malls actually stay open on all statutory holidays. The only difference is that Pacific Mall can open on any statutory holiday, while the others still have to close on Easter Sunday and Christmas. Why Easter Sunday, and not, say, Thanksgiving, I do not know.

Toronto is no longer subject to the Retail Business Holidays Act and can pass its own by-laws under the City of Toronto Act. The Eaton Centre is the only mall in Toronto that has its own tourist exemption to remain open, but a number of much smaller malls can stay open because they fall within neighbourhoods with exemptions, most notably the malls in Bloor-Yorkville (Hazelton Lanes - or whatever it calls itself these days, Manulife Centre, etc.). Queen's Quay Terminal also falls within that latter category, although there isn't much left inside at which to shop.

Really? I didn't know that. I wouldn't have thought that most cities would have designated their malls as tourist attractions, unless they were very notable on the world stage like say the West Edmonton Mall (which I suppose isn't the largest mall in the world anymore though).

I think it's fairly common for municipalities to give certain malls tourist exemptions so that they can remain open on holidays. Has more to do with wanting tourists to keep spending, I suspect, than it necessarily means that every mall is an attraction in its own right.

 

[Miran Chauhan Sugrim]

i'd say North York

 

[wild goose chase]

It's both a "cultural" and language thing (speaking from experience).

It makes sense that language makes a big difference, so I guess if language comfort and familiarity explains part of the trend, then at least for some communities that are very new, the segregation trend would be better explained by mother tongue than ethnicity alone. I wonder if you only looked at those fully fluent in English (or perhaps only looked at Canadian-born who are adults), how much remaining segregation is by ethnicity alone. Then again, there are many communities who have been here for many generations and are probably majority English- fluent (if not having it as their first, mother tongue) like the Italian, other European, and Jewish communities in North York, Vaughan etc, as well as those who were initially English-speaking when they immigrated (eg. West Indians like Jamaicans, Guyanese etc. who speak if not a dialect then a closely related Patois), so the cultural component of segregation might be stronger than just ability to speak/or require service in another language in some of those cases.

Whatever the trend, I don't think there are in Toronto, besides Chinatown which is from the 50s, enclaves occupied by very similar demographics for multiple generations (say an ethnic enclave that hasn't changed demographics for 50, 60, years or more, but of course when you go that far, Toronto wasn't as diverse to begin with). Nearly all the earlier waves of immigrants have already suburbanized or taken paths away from the neighbourhoods they first settled in. This is different from African American segregation in northern US cities that arose from a history of force not choice (it was surprising/shocking to me that Chicago's racial segregation of North being white and South being black was already in place when the first Great Migration started over 100 years back; I can't imagine any neighbourhood having the same segregated demographics in Toronto as they did 100 years ago since our earliest Black, Jewish, Irish, Chinese areas like the Ward, Cabbagetown etc have long had their residents and later descendants leave).

 

[wild goose chase]

I think it's fairly common for municipalities to give certain malls tourist exemptions so that they can remain open on holidays. Has more to do with wanting tourists to keep spending, I suspect, than it necessarily means that every mall is an attraction in its own right.

I thought that maybe the reason was that York Region wanted to make Pacific Mall a culture or heritage-based attraction because it calls itself the largest Chinese-themed/oriented mall in North America (does anyone know if that's true or could actually be verified?) and that might be a reason for its "notability".

Though Pacific Mall is fairly new (only been there since the 90s) and a lot of the time heritage-based attractions in many cities focus on spots with ethnic neighbourhoods/districts with a longer history like older Chinatowns, Little Italys, or something like our Cabbagetown etc. rather than very new, post-60s ethnic neighbourhoods. Making Pacific Mall a part of Markham's heritage after only about 20 years is not something I'd have expected, but maybe you're right about it being all about spending, not cultural attraction per se.

 

[prosperegal]

It makes sense that language makes a big difference, so I guess if language comfort and familiarity explains part of the trend, then at least for some communities that are very new, the segregation trend would be better explained by mother tongue than ethnicity alone. I wonder if you only looked at those fully fluent in English (or perhaps only looked at Canadian-born who are adults), how much remaining segregation is by ethnicity alone. Then again, there are many communities who have been here for many generations and are probably majority English- fluent (if not having it as their first, mother tongue) like the Italian, other European, and Jewish communities in North York, Vaughan etc, as well as those who were initially English-speaking when they immigrated (eg. West Indians like Jamaicans, Guyanese etc. who speak if not a dialect then a closely related Patois), so the cultural component of segregation might be stronger than just ability to speak/or require service in another language in some of those cases.

Whatever the trend, I don't think there are in Toronto, besides Chinatown which is from the 50s, enclaves occupied by very similar demographics for multiple generations (say an ethnic enclave that hasn't changed demographics for 50, 60, years or more, but of course when you go that far, Toronto wasn't as diverse to begin with). Nearly all the earlier waves of immigrants have already suburbanized or taken paths away from the neighbourhoods they first settled in. This is different from African American segregation in northern US cities that arose from a history of force not choice (it was surprising/shocking to me that Chicago's racial segregation of North being white and South being black was already in place when the first Great Migration started over 100 years back; I can't imagine any neighbourhood having the same segregated demographics in Toronto as they did 100 years ago since our earliest Black, Jewish, Irish, Chinese areas like the Ward, Cabbagetown etc have long had their residents and later descendants leave).

In the 80s and 90s, Dundas/Spadina was more of a Little Saigon than Chinatown per se (or maybe more accurately, a mix - many were Vietnamese refugees of Chinese descent)). That was when the area started earning a "ghetto" (or more in more PC language, "not that nice") reputation - at least within the HK Chinese community (those who came in the 70s, 80s and 90s and have settled in the suburbs. Probably more of an intercultural conflict kind of thing. This happens). I spent my youth being told that "good Chinese girls don't go to Chinatown." I suppose I would have been told the same had I been male, too.

 

[King of Kensington]

In the 80s and 90s, Dundas/Spadina was more of a Little Saigon than Chinatown per se (or maybe more accurately, a mix - many were Vietnamese refugees of Chinese descent)). That was when the area started earning a "ghetto" (or more in more PC language, "not that nice") reputation - at least within the HK Chinese community (those who came in the 70s, 80s and 90s and have settled in the suburbs. Probably more of an intercultural conflict kind of thing. This happens). I spent my youth being told that "good Chinese girls don't go to Chinatown." I suppose I would have been told the same had I been male, too.

I think the idea of Vietnamese-dominated Chinatown is kind of an urban myth. At no time did those born in Vietnam come close to the number born in China/HK.

Whatever the trend, I don't think there are in Toronto, besides Chinatown which is from the 50s, enclaves occupied by very similar demographics for multiple generations (say an ethnic enclave that hasn't changed demographics for 50, 60, years or more, but of course when you go that far, Toronto wasn't as diverse to begin with). Nearly all the earlier waves of immigrants have already suburbanized or taken paths away from the neighbourhoods they first settled in. This is different from African American segregation in northern US cities that arose from a history of force not choice (it was surprising/shocking to me that Chicago's racial segregation of North being white and South being black was already in place when the first Great Migration started over 100 years back; I can't imagine any neighbourhood having the same segregated demographics in Toronto as they did 100 years ago since our earliest Black, Jewish, Irish, Chinese areas like the Ward, Cabbagetown etc have long had their residents and later descendants leave).

Besides Chinatown, some inner city ethnic enclaves that have held out are Little Portugal (still about 1/3 Portuguese) and to a lesser extent Greektown on the Danforth (although it's gentrified significantly, many Greeks didn't move that far away, into East York). Little Italy on College St. has long ceased to be Italian, though further removed from downtown Corso Italia still has a lot of old school Italians even as Italians have departed to Woodbridge and the area has become more multicultural. On Roncesvalles, a few Polish institutions survive but the area doesn't feel Polish anymore.

I'd say the "timeline" looks something like this:

Little Italy (1920s-1980s)

Polish Roncesvalles/Parkdale (1950s-1990s)

Corso Italia (1950s-present; though it has shrunk significantly)

Dundas-Spadina Chinatown, Little Portugal, to a lesser extent Danforth/Greektown (1960s-present)

Gerrard-Broadview Chinatown (1970s-present)

 

[robofree]

I think it is north york

 

[prosperegal]

I think the idea of Vietnamese-dominated Chinatown is kind of an urban myth. At no time did those born in Vietnam come close to the number born in China/HK.

I guess it was something invented by (snobby) HK suburbanites then.

 

[wild goose chase]

I think the idea of Vietnamese-dominated Chinatown is kind of an urban myth. At no time did those born in Vietnam come close to the number born in China/HK.

I guess it was something invented by (snobby) HK suburbanites then.

Actually, I haven't heard that about Toronto's Chinatown as much -- I actually think of other cities' Chinatowns, like Montreal's as being more Vietnamese-dominated, as well as many US cities that received more Vietnam War refugees.

It's true that the years immediately following the Vietnam War (latter half of the 70s and 80s) did lead to an increase in Vietnamese immigration to North America and some probably did settle in older Chinatowns or other East Asian-dominated communities but I think in terms of relative proportion it didn't impact Toronto as much probably because Toronto's non-Vietnamese East Asian (mainly Chinese) population was sizeable to begin with compared to the refugee wave.