[Hypnotoad]

I'm not going to lie to you guys, when I lived out West it was all "we hate Toronto" all the time.

This would come up almost daily and lead to some fun chats. The first theme was that all the anti-Toronto people I hung out with either had never been to Toronto (but wanted to visit) or had visited and liked their time here. I thought it was strange that they hated the city despite either liking their visit or wanting to come here. They said it has nothing to do with the city itself but Ontario, the Toronto-centric nature of the country/media and the constant Liberal-voting block of Toronto that used to win elections before they even voted in B.C.

To them it was a side that Toronto hogs the lime light and that no one ever talked about Vancouver, Calgary or Victoria. Out "East" was everywhere past Toronto. To most of them (all very educated guys, I should add), there was no Central Canada. It was just "out East" and them. And "out East" dominates and they have a complex. Toronto was the elephant (although they'd never say that in so many words).

Still, after more discussion the real truth was revealed. They all hate the Leafs with a passion and hate that every Hockey Night in Canada shows Leafs games. This would drive them nuts. It was a weekly reminder how much they hate Toronto/Leafs and so on and so on. So in the end, they just built up a lifetime of bitterness.

I've had many of them over since I moved back. They love visiting and we always have a good time. But when we're drinking they don't hold back and remind me just how much they hate Toronto, reason notwithstanding.

We could always agree, however, that Canada was better than the US. Yes, it was our collective elephant-mouse complex that kept us friends. That, and you know, every other elememt that we actually took seriously.

 

[oreoshack]

i find it hard to believe that this national hatefest for toronto stems from something so trivial as hockey

 

[Hypnotoad]

i find it hard to believe that this national hatefest for toronto stems from something so trivial as hockey

What may be trivial to you may be important, and constant to someone else...

 

[allabootmatt]

This is a popular debate which arises regularly. The theories people put forth can be interesting.

But please, let's not claim other people hate us because they are jealous - of our success, our culture, or anything else. This is the same argument that Americans use when puzzling over why people the world over hate their country. If you consider this comparison, it becomes clear that jealousy has nothing to do with it.

If anything, the "you're just jealous" argument is the only valid reason people might have for hating us.

You don't think there's an element of jealousy in the whole thing? Over real or perceived advantages afforded Toronto? It's a persistent (and pernicious) myth in the ROC that Toronto sucks up the resources of the rest of the country, so isn't resentment over that "special treatment" jealousy? And isn't the nasty antipathy that so many (mostly English, btw) Montrealers, for example, seem to have for the city largely a product of jealousy over Toronto's having the bigger/more important cultural and economic institutions, and getting an ever-increasing share of attention as a result?

The examples could go on. I think jealousy is a *huge* part of this issue.

 

[TOinTO]

While the US was founded on lofty enlightenment ideals, the only founding ideal for Canada was entitlement to a share of the pie.

E.g. the BNA act promising B.C. a railway because that was it's condition for joining.

Can you think of any liberal ideal that this country has not sacrificed to regional entitlement? One person one vote? Separation of church and state? freedom of speech? Every federal program is specially tailored ten different ways.

Every region of the country is jealous that other regions are getting more than their share of the pie. Ontario is the traditional English power centre, so it is the focus of most of the jealousy. Toronto, as the power centre of Ontario, is especially loathed.

There is some basis in this. The western provinces were treated in a colonial fashion by the Canadian government. Their role was to provide raw materials to the manufacturing in Ontario and Quebec. The prices they got for those commodities were determined by Ontario and Quebec.

But there's little justification for the resentment given the current situation.

I think it's time to toss in the towel on the Canadian national experiment. Give in entirely to provincial demands for power, eliminate every possible federal program and cut federal expenditures down to the minimum required for defence (which should really just be a tribute paid to the Americans). All on the condition of eliminating equalization. Then I think regional resentment would dissipate because there just wouldn't be a pie to fight over.

 

[junctionist]

I think it's time to toss in the towel on the Canadian national experiment. Give in entirely to provincial demands for power, eliminate every possible federal program and cut federal expenditures down to the minimum required for defence (which should really just be a tribute paid to the Americans). All on the condition of eliminating equalization. Then I think regional resentment would dissipate because there just wouldn't be a pie to fight over.

The lack of equalization would result in some extremely poor provinces. That wouldn't eliminate regionalism. Look at the division between the richest American states located in the New England region, and the poorest states that formed the South like Kentucky, Alabama, or Mississippi. The religious conservatives' distrust of the liberal New Yorkers, exemplifies the division.

 

[Brandon716]

People hate Toronto mostly because of the fact that its so large and pervasive, not because they genuinely HATE it. I don't think jealousy describes it, but the fact that so many Canadians have to look to Toronto as a national symbol can obviously create some issues.

On another note, I think people here struck a good vibe when they tapped into the western provinces disliking the political polarity. Albertans don't like how Liberal red Ontario is, but the same can be said vice versa. How many Ontario Liberals can you find that admire Alberta's Conservative preference?

While the concerns are legitimate, I doubt that even Liberal Ontarians or Conservative Albertans genuinely hate one another. Its more of a big brother hating his small brother for this or that... While it feels like genuine hate, its just a genuine disagreement in the Canadian mosaic.

That's my take on it.

IF any of you want to compare Canadian regionalism to American regionalism, just remember there are more Americans than not that hate New York's politics and New York's pervasiveness. You don't get that feeling online, but believe me its there if you visit middle America. I would argue its for much of the same reasons.

Also, the United States has equalization but we just don't call it equalization. I've recently posted this map elsewhere on the forum, but just look at the latest stats on what states pay more and what they get back for each federal tax dollar.

As you can obviously tell, states like California and New York only get a part of what they spend in federal taxation back, while states like Mississippi are heavily dependent upon the Federal Government for assistance. Mississippi gets over $1.80 back for every $1.00 they spend in federal taxes.

Michigan is just sad, they are getting the shaft from all ends: bad trade policy hurting their economic backbone, federal government shafts them on funds. Its no wonder why the US has such an imbalance.

You can get more stats from this conservative think tank:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html

As always, I don't advocate the Tax Foundation's principles, but they do have a good stat map of the US.

 

[Hipster Duck]

The lack of equalization would result in some extremely poor provinces. That wouldn't eliminate regionalism. Look at the division between the richest American states located in the New England region, and the poorest states that formed the South like Kentucky, Alabama, or Mississippi. The religious conservatives' distrust of the liberal New Yorkers, exemplifies the division.

I'm not sure that the currently poor provinces (read: the Maritimes) would necessarily suffer under the dissolution of Canada. Right now, the worst off like PEI and New Brunswick are sort of economic basket cases tethered to the rest of the country like East Germany is to the West. Our fear is that if not for equalization payments, these provinces would slip into third world status. However, I think that if they were separate countries they may have developed their own indigenous economy very similar to what happened to Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary after the fall of the iron curtain, when they didn't have a rich cousin to bail them out. Right now, there is no incentive for these provinces to form an economy of their own, because a growing source of their income comes from shipping their most talented to skilled workers to Alberta to send back remittances.

 

[Hydrogen]

A feeling of dependence can certainly generate a sense of enmity. I wouldn't be surprised if that contributed to some of the negative attitudes found in Atlantic Canada.

In Montreal, I have always found that those who rant against Toronto usually do so as a long and traditional stance of competition (jokes about sports teams are the best illustration). Many die-hard Montrealers believe that their city and their way of life is superior to that of Toronto.

The feeling out west is defined by a sense that they have been ignored. I can recall having a conversation while in Vancouver with a man who hated Toronto because "everything is made there" (he actually meant the Greater Golden Horseshoe, but didn't really know any better). Once he discovered that I then working for the federal government though, he inevitably shifted his rant towards Ottawa. He was buying the drinks, so I just listened.


Lesson: if you ever want to deflect criticism away from Toronto, bring up Ottawa. The people in that city have a hard time seeing themselves as anything other than Canadian, but the fact that the federal government is there makes the place a biggest target for frothing rants.

 

[TOinTO]

The lack of equalization would result in some extremely poor provinces. That wouldn't eliminate regionalism.

True, but if we're not subsidizing them I don't care if they hate us.
I also agree with hipster duck that less subsidization would lead to greater independence, self confidence and less nursing of grievances. It would also lead to a lot of out migration, which is good and natural. I'd support a common labour market for all of Canada.

Right now we have political system that allows these regional resentments and entitlements to motivate significant policy and spending decisions. So our taxes subsidize money losing 'traditional' industries in remote regions of the country. But we have seen that this only drags out the decline and exacerbates environmental destruction.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Does anyone know why trade and labour restrictions between provinces still exist? What I mean is I would support free trade and harmonizing of labour nationally on principle, even if Toronto stood to loose out. Who is impeding this process? Why does it matter where pipes are made or where you get licensed as an engineer or where you produce your cheese or what province you shingle a roof in?

 

[theman23]

Still, after more discussion the real truth was revealed. They all hate the Leafs with a passion and hate that every Hockey Night in Canada shows Leafs games. This would drive them nuts. It was a weekly reminder how much they hate Toronto/Leafs and so on and so on. So in the end, they just built up a lifetime of bitternes

The undue prejudice towards members of the Leaf nation is the worst. If the same level of hate and unfair stereotyping (sometimes bordering on libel) was ever direct at any other ethnic or cultural group, there would be a national outcry over the "un-Canadian"-ness of it all. Lawsuits and successful human rights complaints would be filed. But Leaf nation? No, we're expected to just take the abuse.

You certainly don't see the same in other countries. For example, Cubs fans could never claim to be in the same situation. When will Canadians take a cue from the Americans and come to understand that it doesn't matter if you believe in JFJ or Jesus; that, no matter how much you disagree with what I have to believe in, I still deserve to be treated with a certain level of humanity and respect. Sometimes, I wonder if there is any future for us in this country. It is a sad situation.

 

[junctionist]

I'm not sure that the currently poor provinces (read: the Maritimes) would necessarily suffer under the dissolution of Canada. Right now, the worst off like PEI and New Brunswick are sort of economic basket cases tethered to the rest of the country like East Germany is to the West. Our fear is that if not for equalization payments, these provinces would slip into third world status. However, I think that if they were separate countries they may have developed their own indigenous economy very similar to what happened to Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary after the fall of the iron curtain, when they didn't have a rich cousin to bail them out. Right now, there is no incentive for these provinces to form an economy of their own, because a growing source of their income comes from shipping their most talented to skilled workers to Alberta to send back remittances.

I don't understand the Central European example. Poland, for instance, borrowed from the West, and in many times couldn't repay the debt, which resulted in increased poverty. It's not like the Soviet Union was there, ready to bail the country out. There were no equalization payments made in 1980 when the debt surpassed twenty billion dollars and the food shortages started to occur. The abandonment of the strictly planned economic system which those countries had to accept after the war resulted in sustained economic prosperity after the Cold War era.

All the provinces have market economies. If they were in direct competition with each other without equalization payments, there would still be winners and losers, but the losers be a lot worse off. The rich would be richer, and the poor would be poorer. I think there is a motivation/incentive to develop economies of their own, the motivation of wealth, and the equalization money has the potential to speed things up if spent properly. No, I don't believe in keeping remote, traditional money losing industries alive, the money shouldn't be spent on that.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I don't understand the Central European example. Poland, for instance, borrowed from the West, and in many times couldn't repay the debt, which resulted in increased poverty. It's not like the Soviet Union was there, ready to bail the country out. There were no equalization payments made in 1980 when the debt surpassed twenty billion dollars and the food shortages started to occur. The abandonment of the strictly planned economic system which those countries had to accept after the war resulted in sustained economic prosperity after the Cold War era.

I was referring to the economic growth of the former East Bloc countries after the end of the cold war.

Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary made considerable gains in prosperity during the 90s, while East Germany continues to be an economic laggard despite getting cash infusions from the west to the tune of about a trillion Deutsch marks to prop up their infrastructure. My argument is that Atlantic Canada suffers from the same plight as East Germany, where it has relied on handouts from richer regions of the country and, in the process, has failed to form a strong local economy.

 

[oreoshack]

Many die-hard Montrealers believe that their city and their way of life is superior to that of Toronto.

i hate that, montreal isnt that special, just full of pretentious assholes full of themselves thinking that mcgill is the best school in the world.